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Cosmic Crisp Apple Launch (californiasunday.com)
145 points by zeveb on July 19, 2019 | hide | past | favorite | 97 comments



I love apples, and am very excited to try this new one.

However... it's tough to beat the humble Fuji, IMO.

At peak freshness they are sweet, a little tart with hints of honey, and last pretty long. I feel I can find decent Fujis into late winter, at my local grocery.

I was briefly enamored by the Honeycrisp, but they are not as consistently good as Fujis and almost twice the price.

This winter I discovered Jazz apples. They taste good, but more importantly they are often hard like rocks. I detest even the slightest bit a mealiness, and Jazz are a great late season apple. When the Fujis looked shabby, I'd pick up some Jazz.

Incidentally, this is why I'll never use a grocery delivery service. I love food, I love cooking and am choosey about what I eat. I actually like going to the store and looking over the fruit, and chatting up the person behind the meat counter, etc. It'd be a shame if this ever went away. Don't disrupt grocery distribution. Disrupt whatever incentives that took carrots and made them taste like cardboard, instead of the sweet carrots I remember from my childhood.


>Don't disrupt grocery distribution. Disrupt whatever incentives that took carrots and made them taste like cardboard, instead of the sweet carrots I remember from my childhood.

Isn't it precisely modern grocery distribution that gave us carrots that taste like cardboard and tomatoes that taste like water? These fruits and vegetables were bred for storage and transport, not for flavor.


Ha. Yes. Fair point. I was not precise in my wording.

I was specifically referring the "last mile" of distribution that gets it to my front door. I want to go to the store, and pore the produce.

I don't think Amazon, or grocery-start-up-of-the-month is going to fix that by removing people further from their food. They seem to optimizing for convenience, not the problem I referred to.


This cries for blind taste tests.


I’ve become a recent convert to Envy. They seem more robust than Fuji and taste at least as good. With other varieties, I’d always go though a cycle where I liked them for a few weeks, then got a few gross ones and I’d give them up for a few weeks, and repeat. I haven’t had a gross Envy yet despite going for several months. The price is decent too!


Couldn't agree more about Envy... and that said, I was at an event where I got to sample a Cosmic Crisp apple and happy to say that it's pretty good. Not sure if it's better than Envy, but... it's very close.

Currently, when shopping I'd go with Envy > Braeburn > Honeycrisp (seasonally, the go off so quickly) > Cameo > Gala... Courtland are somewhere in there.

Also I live in Texas and all the apples here taste bad compared to Washington and New York and New England. Apples, bagels, and pizza... you just can't get good ones in Austin... and it sucks.


as someone who also lives in Austin i have certainly found this to be the case. the only places that one can get a reasonably decent apple seem to be either sprouts, central market, or whole foods, but the problem there is the whole "we're all natural and responsibly sourced" tax that raises the price significantly and makes it an untenable position to maintain for someone like me who tends to have a lot of trouble generating reliable income


To me, Envy is considerably better than Fuji.


Hm I'm a Fuji/Gala guy and never even seen an envy. I usually like to try out different varieties when I get fruits though. I'll have to keep a look out


Thanks for the tip!


Something's going on with honey crisp. For the first few years it was VERY consistent. Large crispy apples that were juicy. Now sometimes I go to the store and there are Honeycrisps half the size of what they used to be. I stick to the large ones and they seem better.


Because they're so popular and pricey, a lot of orchards started growing them, even in places where they don't do so well. So, quality has gone down.


Agreed, when I see a batch of large Honeycrisps I pick some up. I’m excited to try this new Apple, given its lineage.


Back when I lived in Seattle, the Honeycrisp at the farmer's market down the street were ginormous. I had never seen them that size anywhere else in the country.


For what it's worth, apple size is largely a function of how hard the grower 'thins' the developing crop. If they remove most of the fruitlets early on such that there is fewer than one apple left on the tree per blossom cluster, huge fruits can result. Thinning to one-per-cluster is kind of average, and those little "lunchbox" apples are grown 2+ per cluster.


Fair enough. Maybe that is why the smaller orchards and packers have larger fruits.

From what I understand, not only do consumers not want larger apple sizes, because the honeycrisp bruise so easily, larger honeycrisps are a PITA to manage.


I’ve heard folks in Minnesota say that it is because it doesn’t get cold enough in places (like Washington) that started growing them in larger amounts.


You sure you aren't looking at the organic ones? They are smaller.


Try the Envy variety if you can find it. I'm a Fuji / Jazz fan as well, and the Envy hit the spot with me.


Fuji are among the best "keepers" in the industry -- they'll last a year in marketable condition if kept in proper controlled-atmosphere storage. Kind of like the modern Ben Davis, except they taste good!


> they'll last a year in marketable condition if kept in proper controlled-atmosphere storage

Exactly so. And they will be, and they are. And then they end up tasting old and mealy. And people the last two seasons have been looking at the variety with disdain because of this.

There is nothing so wonderful that it can not be utterly destroyed through optimization.


Maybe my tastebuds are unusual, but to me, Fujis are really flavorless. I kinda feel like I'm chewing water. I do like the consistency.

My favorites are Envy, Opal, and Honeycrisp. Very excited about Cosmic Crisp!


The way nature works, there’s no guarantee our beloved varieties will be around forever; pests, blights, climate stress...

The more variety the better!

(Fuji’s are hard to beat :)


My one gripe with Fujis is if not at perfect point can taste “green”. Like a kind of really light sap taste.


I like you


Red delicious apples are terrible. My previous employer used to have fruit delivered twice a week and everytime the banana runs out in an hour, the oranges by end of day. The red delicious apple never runs out. They did switch it for better apples later on.


This! I honestly don't understand why that some still exists. I'd wager that those apples have turned enough consumers off apples that the Apple industry as a whole might be better off if that apple variety had never existed.


I buy them by the bag for $3-4 and use them as a transport for peanut butter. The good apples are stupid pricey and $3+ / pound and seem to get mushy in just a couple days.


You could use better apples as PB transport. I never buy apples at full price and rarely spend more than $1.29 a lb. for Gala, Fuji or Honeycrisp (they do go on sale now and again)...

Most of the apples I eat are for Almond butter or PB transport... I live for that meal.


I grew up in the 80s in Washington eating them, and man, I remember the Red Delicious being my favorite apple of all time. Something has happened to the quality, or I just had no taste when I was younger, because I am mostly disappointed when I get them nowadays.

My current favorite is the Pacific Rose, which has a similar skin and is delightfully sweet. Call me a Philistine, but there is something about the Red Delicious that appeals to me still.


Pennsylvania here, same vintage. Agree 100%, red delicious used to be my jam. That stark contrast between the deep red skin and bright, clear flesh, those proud knuckles on the bottom, perfect crunch, sweet fresh taste, they used to be so good.


Apple [Malus pumila, not the tech company] fanatic here. I've been following the development and pre-launch activities for Cosmic Crisp for a couple years now, mainly through "Good Fruit Grower" magazine. [I've also tried to get a tree of this variety as an experiment, but the nurseries are prohibited from selling Cosmic Crisp trees to non-Washington growers for some time.

The amount of scientific, horticultural, and marketing effort associated with this apple is really something. The Washington apple industry is wagering a _lot_ on the success of this variety. Hopefully they can capture some of the success associated with Honeycrisp [undeniably a great variety when grown well, and for years the most profitable variety for growers by far], without the quality problems that attended Honeycrisp's status as an unmanaged variety [especially after the patent expired], some of which are noted in this thread.

side note : Cosmic Crisp's "other" parent, Enterprise, is an awesome apple with bright 'candy apple red' skin [rather thick] and a very dense, crunchy flesh [hence its fair resistance to bruising]. It was developed by the Perdue-Rutgers-Indiana apple development program that also produced Williams' Pride, Pristine, and other fine varieties.


Planet Money has a good short story on how we escaped the tyranny of the Red Delicious:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDShFasYq9M


I'm confused, because I had a Cosmic Crisp last year (bought at a grocery store in the Seattle suburbs). My husband and I have been talking about it ever since because it was so damn good. Although this does explain why I haven't seen one since.


Given their development was at WSU, they've been "sort of available at times" for a few years, but not like mass market available.


You must have been a part of the beta test.


Brings a new meaning to finding bugs....


Not really, because the computer meaning of the word branched off the literal meaning.


Ok, 'brings renewed meaning'. :P


SOMEONE GET THAT MOTH OUT OF THE MAINFRAME


Shout out to Central Market here in Houston. They routinely have ~20 or so varieties of apples in stock and will happily (more or less depending on who you ask) cut one up for you as a free sample in the store. I discovered the opal gold this way a few years ago, though I've been a bit disappointed recently as it transitioned from seasonably available to year round.

Envy vs Fuji comment - recently our Fuji's have been a lot larger (excess of 1 lb), whereas our NZ Envys and Smittens (my new jam) are about half the size. My sense is that larger apples often don't have as great if texture, and if you're buying by the pound but eating by the apple, the smaller fruits are better value even if they're slightly pricier.


Does anyone know the health profile of these apples that are bred to be sweeter? I love fujis and honeycrisps, and I'm sure I'll like these cosmic crisps as well.

But I wonder if they're as healthy (i.e., calories, glycemic index) as the apples that we were told were so good for us in our youth.


Apples are not bred, but rather discovered. Most apples grown from seed are small and sour; fine for cider but bad for eating. Every so often a good eating variety pops up, and if humans are around, they'll keep a graft of it and then we have (essentially) clones of that one for evermore. Johnny Appleseed's plantations ahead of the frontier (for the purpose of cider) are responsible for many apple varieties that exist today, on account of the sheer number of trees grown from seed.

Edit: actually, as I just read from a link further down, it's a bit more complicated than the and there are breeding programs, but they are still much like discovery, but trying to wrest a little bit of control from a mostly random process.

I suspect that there are certain growing techniques (i.e. environmental controls) that are used to enhance size, sweetness, etc, but not really sure about that.


Cosmic Crisp is a cross between Honeycrisp and Enterprise. How is that not breeding?


As my later edit said, it seems that they can breed them, but the yield rate (i.e. offspring with decent fruit) is ridiculously low.


Been waiting for this apple for years! I've yet to try it but it sounds super interesting. I love honeycrisp, this seems like exactly what can replace it.


> I love honeycrisp, this seems like exactly what can replace it.

Not necessarily. A single cosmic crisp is undoubtedly more enjoyable than a single honey crisp because it's both sweeter and tarter (they had them at NYC farmers markets last year), but what about after your 10th apple of the season?

You can imagine a situation like where almost 100% of people might agree that a Unicorn Frappe is better than a shot of straight espresso, but where almost 0% of people feel the need to have more than one of them in a lifetime. Not anywhere near that extreme of course, but just to illustrate the idea.


Why would you want to replace Honeycrisp though?

I've tried all of these varieties people have claimed are as good (Ambrosia, Jazz)... none even comes close.


Cosmic Crisp has the taste (and some claims better taste than the Honeycrisp). They are easier to grow. You need to grow smaller honeycrisps to sell well, and that has been an issue. Honeycrisps bruise easily while on the tree, making picking and packing difficult. They bruise easily in transport. Many people love them, but 25% of the fruit gets thrown out somewhere along the way. They don't store well.

The Cosmic Crisp was crossed with the Enterprise. They don't grow to problematic sizes. They are easier to handle. They store very well -- all the way into the next harvest season. A lot of the Red Delicious orchards in WA are converting over to these. So we're expecting to see a more consistent supply rather than something that is finicky and seasonal -- better price variability, and probably better prices for consumers.


“crossed with Enterprise”

I can’t help but read this as a B2B software pitch.

I imagine a landing page that says this is the fruit that consumers know and love but is somehow more robust. Instead of pricing by the pound or bushel they would have “click here to speak with a representative.”

Does Gartner have a magic quadrant for fruit?


Cosmic Crisp supposedly has the Honeycrisp taste without the fragility... so, in theory, lower prices.

imo, the coloration is much more appealing too.


Honeycrisp apples are awful to grow. Terribly fragile, etc. but they distort the market through demand in such a way that farmers in places that can't grow them well still have to.


Price. My understanding is that they're a pain for growers, which is why they cost more than other apples.


Try an Opal or Envy.

Really good apples, in different ways than Honeycrisp!


I don't even really like apples but for some reason i've been following this apple for several years... very excited to try it!


I buy Pink Ladies. And recommend them to you. Tart, crisp.


This article has an interesting part about Pink Ladies; how the apples you buy in the store labeled "Pink Ladies" might be a different cultivar than Cripps Pink which was the previously copyrighted cultivar that originally had the "Pink Lady" name!


It seems like a weird plan, if 1/3 batches are a different variety and I don't like them now I think all pink ladies are bad.


I find Pink Ladies rather bland. IMHO Braeburns are the best of the industrial apple varieties (the modern ones which are tasty, sweet, and unchallenging); Fuji and Gala are somewhere behind, and Pink Lady behind that.

Cox is still the best, though!


I find it disappointing that this is the only mention of Cox in the comments. Can't be bettered as far as my palate is concerned!


My understanding is that it's rare in the USA, and i suspect most commenters here are from the USA. I'm in the UK, where it is a very common apple in season.


I love Cox Orange Pippin..it used to be my favorite apple in the UK..hands down.

We don’t get it here in the States.


Yeah, I'm in the UK. They don't know what they're missing!


They’re good, but maybe too sweet and sour, if you see what i mean? They’ll overpower anything you eat with it (my breakfast is usually bread, apples, cheese, leftover meat). I ended up settling with Fuji - really good taste, but not as strong


Am I the only one that find Pink Lady having a bitter side taste?

Does this mean I have some weird genetic defect?


Maybe it’s the skin? Cripps Pink have quite a thick skin, with a slight bitterness


seconded. Taste just as good or better than HoneyCrisp and cost less :)


Sweetango is already much better than Honeycrisp. Expensive though, so not an "everyday" apple.


Tried this type a while back. Also quite tasty.


> quite tasty

Understatement of the year. I struggle to think what could be improved in Sweetango. It's what apples want to be when they grow up.


The only problem with this apple is that at first glance it looks like the infamous Red Delicious. They should have bred stripes into it or something...


I didn’t know I could get so hyped over the launch of a new apple.


I was always surprised at the popularity of the "Delicious" apples. My favorite is still Granny Smith, but then I prefer tart apples. I have noticed the explosion of types in the last few decades, but nothing I've tried is as good as a Granny Smith.


In the past I've personally enjoyed the Golden Delicious apples simply because they are more "mellow" if that makes sense. They're not some artisan apple breed that is starting to become more of the norm. They just work as a simple apple.


I learned that Honeycrisp is a great-grandchild of Golden Delicious, from a site linked elsewhere here: https://www.orangepippin.com/varieties/apples/honey-crisp


Red Delicious was one of the best apple varieties in history. Growers though decided to pick early, ship unripe, store over 6 months, not curate their orchards, and produce low quality fruit. It's the economics, stupid! Consumers then completely rejected the Red Delicious breed and the brand name is toxic forevermore.

The same will happen with all the subsequent varieties.

You can have the most delicious fruit anyone has ever tasted, then neglect and abuse its production until it is synonymous with mealy tasteless cardboard. And you will, if you're a commercial apple grower.


"22 years from cross to launch". It will be interesting to see if the time to market will be cut in the near future which could lead to an explosion of new flavours and produce products.


It wont be cut too much.

Making new apple breeds is mostly creating a bunch of variations/hybrids, and waiting 5 years for it to produce fruit.

This is a good read on it: https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/apples-breeding-experi...


They're all propagated from cuttings. You need to to spend 5(ish) years to get a crop to see what the apples actually taste like, then you've got one tree to take cuttings from to get the first 'generation', which you'll be waiting a similar amount of time to get fruit, longer to get a decent crop. It just takes time to scale up the number of trees, from just the one, and then for the trees to get mature enough to bear a decent crop.


A company found a technology to clone from tissue culture and was sued by WSU.

It’s old news now as it’s all been settled. But in the Apple/Fruit world, this was a closely watched lawsuit.

https://www.geekwire.com/2018/cosmic-crisp-conflict-washingt...


For a second I was confused that this was about an Ubuntu launch.


Oddly enough I actually love the slightly bittersweet flavor of red delicious apples. While they do get mealy very quickly, a fresh one is very flavorful to me.


I can't tell whether this is a troll launch with troll comments, because an apple launch feels out of place, yet everyone is so into it o_o


Now I want a pear.


I have been hearing about WA 38 for a while, and I am eagerly looking forward to tasting it this fall.


I'm disappointed that this isn't about rocketry.


I still don't understand: what is the difference between calling it WA 38 and Cosmic Crisp?


One is a code and the other is a marketable name?


But what does it mean that someone "is able to answer only WA 38 questions, and not Cosmic Crisp ones."?


Obligatory plug for my favorite apple, the Pinata [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinova


Green apples and peanut butter plz


Summary: They've bred the red delicious with the honeycrisp.

The honeycrisp is enjoyable to eat, the red delicious is bad to eat but good for apple warehousers and sellers.

So now we get the middle of both worlds.


No, it's honeycrisp + enterprise. The Enterprise is not related to the Red Delicious:

https://www.orangepippin.com/varieties/apples/enterprise

It's also important to realize that apples are grown as genetic clones, rather than a normally breeding species. So a brand like "Honeycrisp" refers to just a single genetic identity rather than a range like most species or subspecies. That also means that crossbreeding a Honeycrisp + Enterprise can create many different varieties of apple, depending on which bits of which parent's DNA gets into the clone.


> Summary: They've bred the red delicious with the honeycrisp.

From the article:

> The Cosmic Crisp (right) is the result of crossbreeding two varieties: the Honeycrisp (left), which growers find finicky but which gives the Cosmic Crisp its texture and juiciness, and Enterprise, a late-ripening, long-storing apple.

Is Enterprise a fancy word for red delicious?



Apparently "Orange Pippin" is a variety of apple, but I'm amused that a site with "Orange" in its name is actually "all about apples, pears, plums, and cherries"


Pippins are usually light green(like Granny Smiths) and can be yellow too..with a tinge or red or orange as it’s cap...

no one knows the exact parent of Orange Pippin that used to be known as Cox(after the breeder) but it could have been a Pippin but Cox’s Orange Pippin is a russet/orange.

Having said that, I have a very old Apple tree that came with the house(this is in California) and is probably over 25 years old at least(if not more)...it looks like a Granny Smith but it tastes like a Pippin to me.(not entirely..still reminds me of my favorite Cox Orange Pippin from the UK. Nothing in America compares to Cox Orange Pippin afaik)...I don’t even pick it before first frost. After first frost, something happens to the tart flesh and the sugars as it comes to the surface. It’s magical. I never pick apples before first frost. Not from this tree anyways. I have a newer Gala and it’s ok. The first frost trick doesn’t work on it. I wish I knew the name of my green apple variety.




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