I don't see why people say things like "Life as we know it is absurd". Because we die? Or.. I don't know. What would be a non-absurd life, then?! Absurd, compared to what? Just because some existentialists said life is absurd, doesn't make it so. (Maybe it was to do with the cultural loss of religion, God no longer there watching, giving life meaning - the creator of the universe caring a lot about you personally, eternal life etc. That plus WW2..)
We're born into presumptions. We grow up surrounded in presumptions. We live through a life full of presumptions. We die still surrounded by presumptions.
I think it's safe to say that most people act as if those presumptions are solid borders that one can't – "not allowed to" – cross. Behaving in a way that others see as silly, or out-of-place, or not based in reality challenges others' presumptions, and we're terrible in handling views that contradict ours, even if said behavior does no damage to the fabric of the society the "silly sod" is in. (Your comment's upset tone suggests as much.)
Imagine seeing a man dancing down the street. He doesn't disturb anyone, takes precautions to avoid colliding with people and things. He has no headphones on. What would you think of him? That he's crazy? mentally-ill, perhaps? unstable? Maybe he's drunk? high? under a different kind of influence?
He's just dancing down the street 'cause he feels like it. No one is hurt, yet so many are upset. Why? He's challenging the presumption that it's not okay to dance – or express joy so openly – in front of those uninvolved, in front of strangers.
Why do we presume so? I haven't the slightest clue. (I have an idea or two about why it could be beneficial – social coherence being one of them – but I don't see any ultimate cause for such a barrier.) Just because I might relate to how the majority would feel does not automatically confirm that my feelings are meaningful, in an existential way.
No, just 'cause someone told you something is something, doesn't mean it is. If so many people arrive to the same conclusion independently, however, it should say something about the validity of the state of things. I don't need people to tell me how to feel – but I feel similar to how they feel, maybe we're onto something.
A more productive venting for your frustration may be asking more insightful questions. Asking what the idea of "absurd" in "absurd life" derives from is a good start, but only as long as you seek to hear the answer, rather than have it disproven.
For what it's worth, I find that the reasons you state in the parethesis are of little relation to the reality of such views. They seemed, intuitively, to have paved the way for people's disillusionment, which probably sparked a whole lot of introspection and consideration. I don't think, however, that people never wondered the same questions before. (Might be wrong, but hasn't Marcus Aurelius famously expressed similar views in Meditations, at the time of Ancient Rome? I need to finish that book.)
As a matter of fact, I haven't seen a single philosopher denouncing existentialism in favor of the more "real" reality, for things matterring exactly as much as we value them. (I'd love to be proven wrong: that would be a marvellous read.)
Have you never felt like an unwritten rule in the society around you made no sense, regardless of how much pressure you received towards following it? George Carlin said, early in his career (paraphrased):
> Not running with scissors – that's a good rule! That's a rule I'd like to follow! These motherfuckers are sharp! Not singing at the table, on the other hand... What happened there? Some poor bastard sang badly at the table, and the rest of us have to suffer for it? What about singing while standing next to the table?¹
The definition of "absurd", roughly, is "not following what is evidently true". You asking me what time it is and me replying "Chicken!" is absurd. So are so many of those presumptions we're born into, live through, and die with. I don't think it's because we die: I think it's because most of those presumptions make not a lick of sense, when you think about them.
You wrote: "He's just dancing down the street 'cause he feels like it. No one is hurt, yet so many are upset. Why?"
Maybe people frown on that or treat the man awkwardly, because they see it as "weird", which subconsciously really means "unfamiliar/uncommon and unexplained, therefore the odds are increased of it being a threat to me or interfering with something that is familiar or desired to me." I think that happens a lot.
There is a story I read (which might have been in Covey's "7 Habits..." book), about a man with his very noisy, disruptive children on a subway train: the passengers seemed irritated, but when he explained to one passenger, that his wife and the children's mother had just died at the hospital, from which they were now returning home, and maybe they were all a little confused and out of their normal behavior. Then the perception of others suddenly changed from "control your kids" to "oh, how might I help?"
Which connects to the whole set of ideas about how we judge each other superficially, but sometimes there could be some reason for our doing so (our safety, or comfort levels with surprising behavior where we have no choice whether to be around it). I expect that is the source of many social norms. Another way to look at it is to consider that we might best not judge others too harshly, and we might be understanding, including to those who themselves judge others harshly, since in all those cases we don't know why they do it. (None of which is to say we should not have any boundaries while thinking about it.)
Various comments in this discussion are interesting. My belief in God and my choices and the specific, long-considered reasons around that are directly connected to why I feel peace and motivation even when things are very hard.
Are those "specific, long-considered reasons" revolve around your religious belief? If so, could you share them? I'm an atheist, and I'm looking to understand the mindset of people who are religious. It was never self-evident to me, and I'm curious why it may be to others.
Thanks for asking, I hope I am not too slow to reply.
The perhaps overly short version is: I have read and tested the Book of Mormon (a companion to the Bible) in the way it says to test it (http://www.mormon.org), and a lifetime of experiences when I followed what I felt inside that I knew was right ("knew" as in, I know I love my wife, or what salt tastes like, but can't necessarily prove or explain it to someone who doesn't want anything to do with it), vs. when I did not do what I knew I should, and the results I found from those choices. Those things together have solidly convinced me by now (with some time lost & hard consequences from learning the hard way at times, and real benefits when I learned the easy way). Life is still challenging, but that is part of the educational program I believe we signed up for, which is worthwhile, and the tools are there for dealing with the hard things.
About the Book of Mormon (and Bible): I have given them a lifetime of almost daily reading and contemplation (sometimes intelligently for me, sometimes not), plus have read some books and articles where people have commented in really fascinating ways about it (Daniel Peterson, Hugh Nibley, fairmormon.org which tries to answer critics, & others), as well as some anti-... material, and have thought about things from various angles ("what if it really...?"), and am satisfied that the debate is more for those who really like debate, while asking hard honest questions is a good thing because that is how we learn, and good things are there for those who seek, and I truly wish the best to all concerned, but ultimately, "proof" to satify everyone is always not going to happen in the way that they want it, and we have to seek according to our personal desires. The invitation from God to know for oneself, is there (as demonstrated by the Book of Mormon, its test, and many associated things).
There is much more detail; I'm happy to share more or try to answer specific questions, whether here, or by posting online some notes I already made but should probably reformat & clean up somewhat. One may also email me if desired (EDIT: at luke425 <symbol> lukecall.net). (From a practical standpoint, I might check this thread or my email somewhere between every few hours and every few days, but am happy to continue the conversation in that way, and after several blank days would assume this thread is complete. Suggestions always welcome. :)
Your conviction comes from the fact that you've read, almost daily, and contemplated over the Bible and the Book of Mormons, as well as read a good number of comments for and arguments against your position.
You also derive it from your life experiences, particularly those where you have either done or not done what you thought you were supposed to/felt good about doing.
Am I getting this right?
Were there any particular experiences or turning points when you may thought "Hm. Is that what my life is about?" or "Ah-ha! That is what I'm supposed to do!"?
(The web site is generated from my note-taking program. It is intended to be very skimmable, where one can click on links if they are interesting, otherwise one doesn't see the details. There can always be more editing, but hopefully it is useful. Maybe in the future some levels should have a summary document of the contents, so you don't have to click around as much to read it in big chunks. Only part of the code to do that is written--to generate single-document outlines from my note-taking program, but not yet to include them in the web site.)
That is a decent summary of what I wrote, but there is much missing. It deserves, and I want to give you, a better than off-the-cuff answer (mostly posted at my web site) but with my schedule in the next few days it might be Tuesday or Wednesday when I can post again here. (I don't remember how long these discussions allow follow-up posts, but my email noted earlier is a fallback.)
>A more productive venting for your frustration may be asking more insightful questions. Asking what the idea of "absurd" in "absurd life" derives from is a good start, but only as long as you seek to hear the answer, rather than have it disproven.
I didn't feel upset or frustrated, I regret giving that impression. Your 'tone' seems to me extremely arrogant, and it makes me want to not engage a moment longer with you. It sounds like you think already have all the answers. I'll let you talk with more 'insightful' people.
