> When you need to ask a colleague something, walk up to his/her desk instead of dropping a message
'Did you get that email I sent you?'
Ahhhhhh~ No. Please don't.
There's plenty of good advice on this article, but be careful that the things that you do for yourself don't negatively impact other people; that's not be healthy, its being thoughtless and selfish.
It never ceases to amaze me how much others think they entitled to your time while working. They'll start conversations when all nonverbal signals show you are trying to get something done. Im at the point where I am going to be forced to be outright rude, which is not easy for me, just to be able to work undisturbed.
"Can we talk about this later? I need to get <task> done by <time>." isn't rude (at least by my barbarian standards), and it would be very rude to ignore such a request.
It doesn't seem rude to my standards, either. I'd be interested to hear others' experiences using it, though.
My experience has been that, unless delivered in an exceptionally conciliatory manner (exaggeratedly, actually), this kind of request gets interpreted as rude by a lot of people. For me, at least, I think it comes from many people assuming they have a "quick question" or that their "small" request isn't difficult to fulfill.
When someone walks up to me and opens with "quick question" the hairs on my neck stand up. I had a job where that became an office trend, everyone would start with "quick question".
I started responding to "quick question" with "long answer". That and I also hung a sign on my chair with my official office hours. Neither actually worked, and people thought I was rude, but it did make me feel better to try to push back. ;)
Long term my takeaway is that while too many meetings drain the life out of people, there's also a layer of communication that needs to happen, and when too much interrupting is going on, it's a sign that the right kind of meetings aren't taking place. Now instead of getting annoyed, I start to track the "quick question" categories, and create new channels for the commonalities, ideally Slack or email rather than a meeting, but in person when it gets big enough.
This is really why I prefer remote. I mean besides wearing pajamas all day. If I need to be scarce to get some work done, I can make myself completely scarce. Nobody can route their problem around my barriers by just showing up at my desk.
But isn't the mental energy required to come up with this answer (and judge its rude/nonrude status) already a distraction? Once you've left the bubble, there is a cost to coming back into the zone.
In my experience it's difficult to set the bubble boundaries. Some days I'm working on small tasks and wouldn't mind being interrupted, other days I need uninterrupted concentration. It's hard to communicate that with colleagues. Maybe there should be a general rule — mornings in the zone, then after lunch handle all tasks that require sync-up + training + selling.
Im at the point where I am going to be forced to be outright rude
Our society is at a point where there are large numbers of people who think their feelings trump larger concerns, like those of the workplace, their job, driver/pedestrian safety, and the rule of law. There is a set of ideas that involves executive function, the delay of gratification, the adherence to ideals, and subsuming the petty ego. It's called being an adult.
If you think your feelings trump such concerns, take a good, hard look at yourself. Are you a narcissist? Do you really subscribe to an objective reality in your actions?
If you are hiring people, look for people who are the opposite to the above.
While you do have a point, it's not much of a stretch to go from that point to sacrificing your overall life satisfaction for the sake of the job/work/whatever arbitrary societal standard exists. To elaborate on that (I'm not suggesting this is your message, though it may be), when I was only a few years younger having lucked into a lucrative job, I took work hyper seriously. I looked down on and distanced myself—intentionally and unintentionally—from those that didn't do the same. A year and half ago I lost my job and couldn't find other work (still jobless) and now have a different perspective. Now I look at people who work like I did with bemusement. What I see is people not putting themselves first, or at least not high enough. To do the same again, I'd need to convince myself that this is idea of success is better in some way than my own. That's not about ego, that's about honesty.
As in many things, there is a balance. You should put yourself first in terms of the balance of your overall life. You should not put your ego first in terms of the fidelity of information you get from the universe! Those are two very different things. If one starts to conflate one's overall personal goals with how they feel about momentary feedback -- this is one of the roads to madness!
I moved office to the other side of the site, up some stairs an into a (admittedly vast) office with no windows in part because of this, people don't get programmers, your 5 minute non-important (to either of us) interruption costs me 15-20 minutes of lost productivity after you walk away from my desk.
I have a phone on my desk that is set to flash, not ring and only then if it's the boss, everyone else just silently rings (and then I get an email a few minutes later "tried ringing, anyway about <unimportant thing>".
and, because of their insatiable personal need to communicate by talking (instead of researching the internal wiki, bug database, or documentation on the network), these people become bulls in a china shop.
and they don't have a clue how destructive they are.
it's such a great example of clashing perspectives. they think they're being friendly and reasonable. the hapless and frustrated programmer thinks they're ignorant, lazy, and annoying.
Apart from the codebase I inherited I love everything about this job, decent money, 9-5, I get (gently) bollocked for staying late, technical freedom, hardware budget.
Best programming job I've ever had and for someone who was damn close to burnout it feels like a holiday!
This holds up to a point, but if your role is so demanding that you cannot hold a conversation (presuming a work conversation but also applies to social - up to a point obviously), then your either not very good at your job or your employer sets unrealistic expectations, or your good and the employer is realistic but you just want to get ahead.
I've worked with people that are a clamshell. It's not a very nice environment. Nobody in a company works "on an island".
> if your role is so demanding that you cannot hold a conversation (presuming a work conversation but also applies to social - up to a point obviously), then your either not very good at your job or your employer sets unrealistic expectations...
Or they are a developer. Being interrupted while programming is really rough. It's like being an insomniac and having trouble falling asleep, when someone walks up and starts talking to you riiiight as you're drifting off. Now you're up for another two hours.
Another analogy is you're building a house of cards using your mental concentration - someone distracting you causes you to knock the whole thing down. Oh, and the house of cards is due Friday.
I don't know why people think devs are special in this regard.
Being interrupted is a universal human problem, there is no need for an analogy for something that anyone who works in a professional (or hell even non professional) job experiences.
Because if you're doing something complicated, you have a bunch of stuff loaded up in short-term memory, and if an interruption throws it all out then it takes a long time to load it back up again.
If you're doing something simple, then it's just a matter of regaining focus. Sometimes devs are doing simple things and interruptions aren't such a big deal, but when we're deep into a debugging session or something it's more of a problem.
This is not to say devs are the only people who work on complicated problems like this, but plenty of non-technical people in software shops don't, and tend to not understand that interruptions are a real problem sometimes.
Other professions don't need to play computer in their head.
I haven't met a single engineer who doesn't recognize that a complex software system is infinitely more complex than any engineering project. Software complexity with its myriad of states is not a joke. Your engineering project, no matter the project, has orders of magnitude fewer variables and possible states. Look into the cognitive load-demands of juggling these multiple layers of complexity and abstractions in your head, and you'll start to understand.
There's a cognitive loading stage necessary before you can do any work. An interruption wreaks havoc on this, and you have to start over; go through the cognitive load phase again. Depending on the code base that can be a substantial process.
Are you a developer? I recall studies that say any interruption costs 30 minutes of productivity for developers. When you put it into cost terms, someone talking in an open office for 30 seconds can literally cost hundreds or thousands of dollars of productivity.
I've worked in multiple roles, including developer. 30 minutes of lost productivity in a dev role is peanuts compared to lost productivity in an engineering job where an hour of engineering work is $300+ of charged time.
And with all this complaining about interruptions and lost productivity, its really only the "sexy tech startups" that seem to have ping pong and foosball tables to waste time playing.
>I think that his point was that similar drop of productivity happen to other professions.
Oh, I see. Yes, I would wholeheartedly agree with that. To his point, I would say many people on here don't necessarily think developers are special in that regard, but most people are developers and they are speaking on that which they know.
I'm a developer (obviously) and I couldn't intelligently speak on how interruptions would disrupt a soft skill profession such as marketing, sales or HR.
Imo, both marketing and sales cause so many interruptions to everyone around, that if their own productivity is harmed by it, they really should do something about it. They are seriously winning the "who is the most noisy most interrupting office" competition.
Think back to grade school after you learned how to do long division. Then pretend you didn't have pencil and paper, so you had to do it in your head. If someone interrupted you right in the middle, wouldn't it be hard to get that context back and continue? It would for me. At that point, I would most likely have to start again at the beginning.
I am a developer and get lots done, but I don't have to work in a sweat shop where I have so much pressure that I cannot have the occasional social conversation or entertain someone else's occasional social conversation. In my opinion an office full of head down developers who don't feel they can talk to anyone, is a horrible environment to spend 1/3 of your life in.
> In my opinion an office full of head down developers who don't feel they can talk to anyone, is a horrible environment to spend 1/3 of your life in.
I agree with that. But I also think that being in an office full of developers that can't use their "inside voice" is a horrible environment to spend 1/3 of your life in.
None of those, I simply don't like getting dropped out the zone for things that aren't immediately important or can't be done over email.
For what it's worth I'm good at my job and my employer doesn't set unrealistic expectations, work time is work time, home time is home time. I don't blur the boundaries, if you want a social chat that's what lunch times are for.
I've worked with Germans in the past, they are much more like me (I'm English) in that regard.
Honestly I think you're part of the problem. It sounds like you are being pushed to a brink where you feel the need to be rude. The situation should've been addressed before you felt yourself at the brink.
Do you have a manager you can sit down with for ten minutes and explain this dynamic to? It's possible your colleagues don't fully understand the implications of their actions and would happily oblige you if they only knew.
Of course I don't know your situation, and given how dysfunctional some office environments are if may be possible that your options are truly limited. In my experience though there usually are options before brinkmanship.
> Do you have a manager you can sit down with for ten minutes and explain this dynamic to?
Yes, he disagrees with my position.
> It's possible your colleagues don't fully understand the implications of their actions
My colleagues do fully understand.
>...how dysfunctional some office environments are
We just moved into an newly built open office plan RIGHT next to finance (finance has our "loud laugher", you know who I'm talking about). Someone thought this was a good idea....
Actually I also have problem with people dragging conversations on needlessly. okay so you have interrupted me and I answered your questions but now as adults we should learn visual cues that somebody wants to end conversation without being rude or discouraging to misc conversations in general. taking a hint is a subtle art often missed by engineers.
Seriously, I cannot think of something more irritating than this. I worked with a person who was more senior in my org who had this habit.
Not only did that piss me off because I would be in the zone (I usually leave my phone at my desk and close all emal/slack tabs to not be disturbed) when he would totally interrupt for a silly question (a la the "did you get my mail?" question).
Please please don't do this. Nothing comes across more selfish and signals that you feel that your time is more important than mine to me than this.
When someone asks if I got their email, the answer is often "Probably." (i.e. I'm not going to check that shit for another couple hours yet, if I can help it, but yeah I'm pretty sure it's safe to assume the email system functions correctly)
Just for fun, somebody should write a "track-and-trace" type of website for email. Then whenever somebody asks that question, give them a track and trace code.
Yes and No. I normally would drop a message and ask if we should meet up. There are a number of coworkers whom I don’t mind them stopping by and vice versa. If in case of emergency I would usually just walk up to their desks and have conversations. Messeaging can be slow and confusing often....
> When you need to ask a colleague something, walk up to his/her desk instead of dropping a message
Dev1: "Hey, your last commit's message was only 'fixed bugs'. Which bugs did you fix"?
Dev2: "Sure. But I'm working on something right now. Shoot me an email about this and I'll send you the bug list by the end of the day."
There is a reason why we have email/messaging. Many times, it just works better. There are things that are better asked in person, there are things that are better asked in an email.
I find that routine is important to getting regular exercise and movement. I am one of those programmers who likes getting into a 'flow' state and working for large blocks of time, so my strategy is to try and get a 1 hr walk in the morning when I wake up.
Much as people like to check their Inbox first thing to get it out of the way before starting productive work, I find that getting my walk in the morning before I have breakfast and sit down to start work ensures that it happens. If I tried to fit it in late in the day, I know that a long debug session or support email thread with a customer will easily derail it.
Organised activity is also good for making me stick to schedules. I took up Kendo about 18 months ago, and the regularly scheduled classes and training sessions are good for forcing me off the computer and go work up a sweat. I especially love the little 30 second meditation we do at the start and end of each class. The purpose of the starting meditation is to put aside all our normal work/life/personal worries and stresses, and focus on the sport, then the end meditation is to bring them all back again.
The problem is that being sedentary for hours is not alleviated by working out in the morning or evening. You have to break the flow every hour, or more often, and move.
> I took up Kendo about 18 months ago, and the regularly scheduled classes and training sessions are good for forcing me off the computer and go work up a sweat. I especially love the little 30 second meditation we do at the start and end of each class.
Mokuso was integral to teaching me to relax and focus; I try to continue meditating even though I haven't done kendo for years, but some days I just want to be sitting in my keikogi in a chilly dojo listening to someone shout "MOKUSOOO~" -- something about that environment was conducive to relaxing.
I go skateboarding at a nearby spot right after work. I found out that, no matter what, I have to take some time for my mind to unwind, otherwise I'm just not there. Although I occasionally talk to fellow people during that time, more often than not I just sit there absorbing the moment, watching the flow and listening to the pops. Such mindfulness gives some quietness to the mind and dramatically improves mind-body attunement.
Absolutely. I look forward to Mokuso during training. It is really a great, relaxing transition between 'everyday' and 'dojo' state of mind.
I particularly enjoy the ceremony surrounding Kendo. That, coupled with the discipline really helps me to focus and push myself both physically and mentally. It makes a great counterpoint to the purely intellectual activity of programming, which I find helps balance me.
I'm having a hard time distinguishing whether this is serious, or BS like herbal supplements. People have been sitting at desk jobs for over 100 years now and those people at an old age are living longer than anyone in history based on life expectancy.
People have been sitting at desk jobs for over 100 years now and those people at an old age are living longer than anyone in history based on life expectancy.
Isn't this one of those standard logic fallacies? I mean, A is true, B is true, but that does not mean B is true because A is true? There might be plenty of other factors affecting B. The advance in medical science for one. At least I always thought that alone was the most influencial factor on better life expectancy. Probably more than enough to even undo the effect of certain lifestyle habits making things worse.
But yes, the article pretty much fails to provide exact numbers or even estimates on how bad a sedentary lifestyle really is.
And obesity levels are higher than ever too. Dismissing this article's message because we are living longer is missing the point. We are living longer despite our poor physical health.
To misdiagnose the problem is worse than not diagnosing the problem at all. Remember when our collective consciousness believed that eating fat was what made you fat? All the food manufacturers starting advertising 0 fat but loaded the food with calories and sugar. This went on for about 15 years.
Instead of assessing the problem as "sitting," maybe we should look at what scientific data says. I know food manufacturers put a hell of a lot of sugar in foods, even foods you wouldn't expect, like spaghetti sauce. They use it as a preservative, so it's in damn near everything.
I know watching food commercials subconsciously compels people to eat, even after the restaurants are closed. Children consume 45% more food when exposed to food commercials.
Side note: the entire site (http://elth.co) appears to be a single-person operation (a side project even — “I am currently put up in the lovely city of Bangalore in India, working for a startup as an Android Engineer.”)
Kudos to the creator (OP). Looks to be a very well-done (if click-baity, but hey, that’s how you....well....kind of...get clicks these days) project, and it comes across very much like many of the larger content creators.
Care to share some background on the project? Looks like you launched pretty recently. Goals? Am I correct in my assumptions here?
Every time I read an article like this, I get a bad feeling and I say to myself "I'll definitely exercise more - I don't wanna be all buggy when I get older due to my lifestyle - I'll do this NOW!". Then a couple of hours later, I'm back coding happily seated. I'm sure this is the case for many of us.
I wish our brains could keep this bad, guilty-like feeling that makes us take action around for longer.
Guilt is a terrible long-term motivator. For me, two big mental shifts made an enormous difference.
1. I had to stop feeling like someone else was going to tell me how to do it or make me do it. Start going to the gym and do whatever exercises you like doing. Keep showing up, and change your posture. Don't think "I should exercise more." Think "I'll go on Tuesday nights when I don't have as much going on." Work from the assumption that you're already a person who exercises, and just think about the mechanics of actually making time for it. We spend way too much time thinking about how we become gym people instead of just going and exercising.
2. As some other people have pointed out, realize that you can't undo a sedentary work day by working out for an hour at the end of the day. One trick I use is to do pomodoros (25 minute chunks of work) followed by a 3-5 minute break where I get up and just walk or look out the window. If my motivation or focus is flagging, sometimes I'll use that time to read a couple of paragraphs on my Kindle app. (Churchill said "a change is as good as a rest"; sometimes taking your eye of the ball for a minute can help you refocus your mind). By moving a little many times throughout the day, I find I don't build up those slow and steady tensions that ruin your body and will to exercise.
There is a Tony Robbins video somewhere where he says "in life, you get your standards". I.e. not what you want or desire but what you make an absolute standard. I found it can take time and few mental visits to a problem before this happens.
Most of us have standards around hygiene, dental care, personal appearance etc that are almost immutable.
If you have a standard that you want to remain fit and that becomes deep-rooted then there is nothing to think about. It will happen.
I've heard the same idea before, but then it was called identity instead of standards. You have a personal identity that you identify with. You have to permanently change your own personal view of yourself in order to change a behavior long term. Change your identity. It's a way to use cognitive dissonance to your own advantage. If you are doing something that goes against your ingrained view of yourself, then it will be mentally uncomfortable, and you'd rather not be doing it.
I think you can also just call this personal values.
For me, the hardest part was getting past that when getting into shape. Going to the gym when you're out of shape isn't very fun. Who wants to role play the loser? You're surrounded by people who all look better and are stronger than you. And it's not just mental, it's also physically unenjoyable.
In my experience, if you can just get over that hump to a point where you start to look good, or get strong, or feel good, it becomes an activity, not a chore. Your body is incredible and it's a shame to not see a glimpse of its potential.
This simple concept was very helpful to me, and I hope to others as well.
You have about 5 seconds before your brain shuts up those ideas like "I'll definitely exercise more...".
It's an awesome idea, life changing even. 5 seconds later your rational self catches up with the idea and starts to counter with 'but I don't have enough time', 'it's too hard', 'maybe tomorrow', etc.
The next time you get the idea to exercise more you need to stop what you are doing right then and there and do something about it. Maybe it's not the best time to start exercising at 3am when you have the idea, but at least put it down in your calendar with an alarm/reminder/something. The point being you need to take action on those ideas as soon as you have them, or they are gone.
you need to stop what you are doing right then and there and do something about it
If you're at home, there's no reason not to just do 10 pressups right there and then (and as you get better, 20, 30 and so on). Or dips with your chair if you can't do pressups yet.
I wouldn't recommend focusing on push-ups, they are counterproductive if you have the typical "computer posture" with hunched/forward shoulders. Chin-ups, rows, and similar are likely to be a better idea.
> Chin-ups, rows, and similar are likely to be a better idea.
And in my opinion are entirely missing the point because they take more pre-planning and effort. Even if only a little.
The problem people are trying to solve is "how do I go from nothing to exercising even a little?" The problem you are helping them solve is "how do I get more/ the most out of my workout?"
It's a serious pet-peeve of mine. I know you mention it with good intentions, but people often try to help others by telling them their personal favourite item, vs helping them solve their problem.
People do similar with programming languages. For a one off project or getting started sometimes a shitty language is the best way to help someone for their specific problem.
While some exercise is probably better than none, doing only push-ups can end up being harmful. I was thinking of postural issues[1] like Upper Cross Syndrome[2], very common among people who sit at a computer all day and don't exercise. Focusing on already-strong/tight muscles like the pecs will be unhelpful for correcting these issues, and can certainly exacerbate them. That said, I may have overreacted due to conflating bench presses with push-ups.
As for programming languages, I've sent "pull requests" for AutoHotKey programs via Reddit PM before. If it's the right tool (or a decent one) for the job...
you need it to be a kind of mediating objective to not lose that pledge. otherwise, the inevitable abandonment comes after exercising a handful of times, if that :P
my intuition tells me you'd need a goal that has pushups (or exercise at all) only as a subcomponent along the path towards the attainment of that goal. hopefully it would persist longer than if solely working out were the goal. so that it doesn't feel "empty" or easily abandon-able after doing it a few times.
I agree, although I’ve found that there are diminishing returns around 25-30 push-ups. At some point you need to use weights or machines that allow you to exceed what you can get from body weight.
During a psychedelic mushroom trip, for the first few hours my rational mind is heavily dampened. I’m not fully aware or conscious in the normal way, and I mostly just remember are intense sensory and emotional impressions. After around 4 or 5 hours, my rational mind comes back with a vengeance and more biological drives are dampened. Pain (temporarily) ceases to be a motivator, as do other low-level emotional sensations like embarrassment, hunger, and whatever weird energy conservation instinct it is that makes many people prefer not to exercise.
At this time, when my mind is clearest (there are several other metaphors I could use here, but let’s go with that), I feel like I could totally exercise as hard as I should for as long as I should without getting caught by that nasty energy-saving mechanism we call laziness.
As a comparison, many people are willing to grind for hours on an MMO character, but aren’t willing to go to the gym for half an hour a day. Without the normal din of brain activity, it’s easy to apply the video game mentality to your meatspace person.
The thing that did finally get me habitually exercising (while sober, of course) was an in-work gym, since sometimes repeatedly lifting heavy things is preferable to another minute dealing with most software products.
You just need to find activity interesting for you
I used to do sedentary lifestyle most of my life until I found rock climbing 2 years ago
I go rock climbing to a gym 2-3 times a week now. I go there because I WANT not because I have to.
This did tremendous job to my health and overall fitness. And this is sustainable in the long term because I don't have problems with motivation.
So my advice — find your sport, any physical activity you are interested in. If it becomes boring, don't hesitate to change it.
You don't need to be a sportsman and become good at something, you just need consistency to move your body , so care about your motivation. Good body will come naturally after some time.
I'm also mad for climbing and yes 2-3 times a weeks does wonders for overall feeling, fitness and strength. It's also a very complete exercise unlike many other sports. But the claim here is doing that at the end of your day still isn't sufficient in dealing with sitting for hours in row. Which I anecdotelly can relate to: I feel way better overall when not spending hours a day sitting. And when I go climbing after a 'standard' working day involving multiple consecutive hours of sitting I'll top at about 4 routes in a certain grade. However when I'm taking a week off to do some light construction works in my house and I go climbing after such a day, when I've been sitting for max 1 hour or so, and even if I already did a considerable amount of physical labour, I'll do 8 routes in that same grade. At first I thought it was a coincidence (like the routes in that grade just being easier or me just accidentally being better for some reason or...) but it happened time and time again in the last couple of years. I'm not 100% sure the not sitting is really the cause, but it is striking.
The idea is to actually do it NOW instead of thinking about it. Then after that, put a daily reminder on your phone, and when it goes off just exercise, rain hail or shine. Most people don't exercise because instead of just doing it, they think of excuses - "oh, it looks like it's going to rain" or "i'm more tired than usual today.. i'll exercise tomorrow instead". To put it simply, make exercise a rule instead of a choice.
It is about loving yourself, granting yourself this time for yourself, form a habit, and stick to the habit. There's no need to get to the gym to become a body builder, start slow and aim low instead and compliment yourself for the achievements you made. Being critical of your performance or lack of exercise is only going to demotivate you as beginner.
If you do not exercise at all right now, doing very little is already a big improvement over essentially nothing. The diff between 0 and 15 min is far greater and significant than 15 and 30 min.
You can start with something simple like doing some minor exercises every 5 min after 1 hr of sitting. It is going to help you focus more as well, because your brain will be in diffused instead of focused mode whilst you're exercising.
I can highly recommend Nederland in Beweging on Dutch TV (tho I doubt you're Dutch, American TV is massive so I hope there's something akin to it). It is 15 minutes a day with a warming up and cooling down. The Dutch government (or well, "gezondsheidsraad") recommends 21 minutes a day of movement and twice a week heavy exercise. With those 15 minutes, you're well under way to reach 21 min and the exercises are different every workday, and target different muscles, so your entire body is in the end in shape. That's in contrast to say running 3 times a week. You meet the heavy exercise requirement, but you won't meet the 21 min one, and various of your muscles (e.g. hamstrings and more or less entire arms) will be weak.
Doing this may also very well increase your overall happiness (and decrease depression), increase your focus, decrease your fatigue, and decrease your procrastination.
Don't rely on that bad, guilty-like feeling. We're hardwired as humans to get out of that state as soon as possible. That can happen in one of two ways. 1) You actually get some exercise, feel better, and now you don't have guilt to motivate you, so you lapse into old patterns. 2) You learn to ignore it and go about your day (as described in your post).
I found that making exercise part of my routine, as opposed to another thing to get round to, I exercised without thinking about it. I started cycling on my commute, now I do 20 miles a day without thinking about it. I know not everyone can cycle all the way to work and home but can you cycle to the train/tram/bus stop? How about the stop after the one you usually catch public transport from?
That's me. If it was just up to me, I'd never exercise. That's why I've got PT session at the gym scheduled every week and make sure to exercise when my more motivated partner exercises. (i.e. say "I'll go for the run with you in the morning" - and then is feel guilty not to) Making plans with other people makes it harder not to follow through.
Be careful of what you wish for :-D I was the same until this year when some very odd bodily sensations turned into full blown health anxiety. Exercise has turned out to be the only thing that helps keep it at bay, it seems. Getting healthy is great but now I seem to feel dreadful pretty quickly if I'm inactive for even a few hours.
I wish these article writers wouldn't write in the "YOU" mode, instead write "how sitting on front the computer is killing me" and then realize maybe there's a better way to communicate this without making us feel guilty.
Pain teaches me away from sitting too long, but the catch is of course to have some alternatives, like taking a break or standing, or doing yoga, if I didn't have those experiences and routines I wouldn't really probably know or recognize the pain, as the pain would be every day with me.
Standing desk is a great invention, but I've noticed I cannot stand all day long, as I cannot sit all day long, best solution for _me_ is to alternate between standing and sitting, that seems to do the trick.
> I wish these article writers wouldn't write in the "YOU" mode, instead
That horse has bolted, unfortunately. Clickbait works and everyone is at it. My pet peeve is "considered harmful. Do all the things that are "considered harmful" in headlines and you will probably come to no harm.
I've seen a lot of articles about sitting but always have some questions:
- I work with computers so sitting or standing a large portion of time is inevitable.
- Is the real problem sitting/standing, or being unfit? If I don't get fat and if I keep fit, will I be ok? Or will sitting still harm me?
- If the claim is that sitting still harms me, how robust is the science here? Do they control for the above? If sitting, as opposed to poor fitness is the problem, does regular movement help? or are we just doomed to this if we use computers?
With all the articles and papers I read, the problem is that you never have to active your body and legs' muscles, even just slightly. Sometimes even your arms' muscles. And this kills us.
The solution to all the problems this create for your body is to use your muscles, and even just a little bit is enough.
- If you are usually standing: you don't have to be standing up for hours, just a few hours are enough.
- If you are usually sitting: a yoga ball is great. You don't have to move all around, keeping your balance on the ball will be good enough.
- And every hour you can take a quick break, or talk to someone so you will move out of your computer and use your muscles.
- Overweight, unfit, and sitting/standing for long periods.
- Unfit and sitting/standing for long periods but not overweight.
- Sitting/standing for long periods but not overweight or unfit.
If obesity was the only health-related issue you could just eat less. If Obesity and unfitness were the only issues you could just get some exercise outside of work hours. And if all three are an issue you'd want to keep active as much as possible during work (although not too much... because physical labour jobs hurt people's health too).
I regularly go to the gym to lift weights and I keep my body fat under control by strict control of eating times (I fast for hours every day). I'm very strong and look good. But I'm constantly battling with finding enough time for everything. I basically want to have all my time to code, but I also want to do other things (I also play guitar and cook, and I sleep at least 8 hours a day). I don't think this feeling will ever go away. I just have to accept that I can only achieve so much with programming.
Relax! This is called a good "work-life balance." ;) Life is not some sprint. No one is going anywhere. There is no finish line unless you construct it.
I'm resonating with this a lot. The thing that helped me a lot was starting my day earlier. I am trying to move all my 'mandatory' tasks to the morning and try to set timeboxes for them, so that after work I have enough time to do other things and don't get distracted. For example, I searched for a 24h gym around my place and go every Monday, Wednesday and Friday before/at 6am for 1h (+10 minutes stretching). It's sometimes tough but that's why I leave enough time between workouts and skip the weekend so I can recover or catch up on sleep if needed. Then afterwards I have an hour for chores like cleaning, dishes, etc.
I also replaced my train commute with a bicycle for some extra health points (and post-work motivation. Full trains depressed and demotivated me)
Same as you, I do IF and try to eat my last meal at ~6pm and don't think about food until next days lunch.
Other things that helps me a lot with being more motivated is trying to leave the office while it's still bright outside. I want to leave earlier because I'm happier and at the same time have more time+motivation for other things.
I'm facing the exact same situation, except I cannot care less about food, which frees up some cooking time.
How do you manage your social life along with these activities? I find that it gets in the way of things I do, but on the other hand, not keeping in touch with friends (who don't do the same activities as you) just drives them away.
I don't really have much of a social life. There is just no way I can manage it. I have friends whom I see about once a week or so. Those are the only ones who have stuck around after years of me not turning up to most things. I make time for my girlfriend, but often she is upset when I refuse to just sit and do nothing with her (like watch mindless TV).
In our office we started a lunchtime walk. We eat our lunch and whoever wants to participate, we head out for a 30 minute walk. It might not be enough, but it's better than the nothing before.
I wasn't suggesting you should do HIIT at work (although we used to take an hour gym breaks during lunch at my previous office since we had a gym next door to the office), but rather do 10 mins of exercise at home and get more benefits while saving 20 mins of time.
I mean if you're chatting with coworkers and relaxing during the walk then it's a different story - but if you're just in to it for health benefits - like I've seen people suggest walking home from work, etc. - just take the shorter route and do proper exercise.
For me, it wasn't about efficiency. Walking turned out to be the one thing I could work into my routine and actually do consistently every day. A big reason was that I enjoyed it.
Threre are a couple health benefits that walking has over HIIT. For my particular case, my doctor told me that the amount of time I sustained an elevated heart rate was more important than how hard I pushed myself (don't try to walk the same distance in a shorter time, instead walk for longer). And there are cognitive benefits unique to walking [1].
I can't speak for anyone else, but waking turned out to be my gateway drug to all kinds of other healthy lifestyle changes.
Many people here seem to be talking about how they have improved their commute or go to the gym a couple times a week.
The article isn't about exercising once or twice a day though. It's about you sitting around too much during the day. Not regularly being even minorly active, no?
Perhaps I'm mistaken but it seems like the people talking about their once or twice a day exercise arent on the same page as the article.
You are right and they are wrong. Sitting for extended periods is correlated with heart disease and other problems regardless of fitness.
I've talked with multiple physical therapists about it and they've been very clear about that distinction. Other commenters here are missing the point.
Other than the click-baity title this article is pretty good. What I like about it is that it makes actionable suggestions as to what you can do to help improve your performance. It also at least makes an effort to provide research to back up some of its claims.
I wish more articles and news outlets would do this. If journalist are going to critique something or show that its problematic I really appreciate it when they give me enough data to go explore and discover more on my own and when they also give me something actionable (preferably based on a body of research itself) which I can do to solve the issue / problem.
Yeah, some good general advice in there that's actually achievable. Although the suggestion of dropping by a colleague for a potential "wonderful conversation" made me laugh given Hacker News readers' usual opinions on interruptions.
I've found the Pomodoro method, coupled with walking and stretching between the breaks, helps immensely.
The movement also helps me maintain energy levels during long periods of working, which can lull if I'm sedentary. I even find maintaining 'flow' perfectly attainable (provided that your mind stays on work between the breaks, and you don't check things like e-mails). I see the Pomodoro break more as a physical break from sitting, with the option of taking a mental break from work if I think it's necessary.
When you need to ask a colleague something, walk up to his/her desk instead of dropping a message (you might strike up a wonderful conversation in the process)
Awesome so now I have no choice but to get immediately dropped out of my zone to answer your question. Go for your walk but go back to your desk and send me your message so I can add it to my queue of other questions that I'll get to once I've debugged this block.
I get up and do stretches and exercises every time it tells me to take a break. I set it for every 11 minutes, but it seems like the breaks are further apart than that. There were noticeable improvements within a week.
I’ve posted this elsewhere, but it feels relevant here so I’ll share it again. I work remotely 80-90 hours a week using my laptop (this is important: your screen needs to be mobile). Here's how I currently try to keep my body moving:
- I don't have a desk or chair. I have a bar table and a stool. This makes a huge difference. I get uncomfortable sitting on the stool after about 30 minutes, so I get off. Then I'll stand at the bar table and work for an hour or two. When I get tired of that, I'll spend a minute or two doing a physical activity (see below).
- I try to work from different physical places, e.g., cafes, different places in the house when nobody is home, the steps outside, the floor, the hammock hanging by the lake. I make it a game to come up with new and novel places to work from that don't require a lot of travel time (unless I'm walking—then it's well-spent travel time), anything to change the physical position of my body while working (and hopefully something that gets uncomfortable within an hour so I'm pushed to change again).
- I have a sandbag next to the bar table that I'll pick up at random times throughout the day and do squats, deadlifts, bent-over rows, or just carry the 60lb thing up the stairs or out around the yard once. I'll also use it as a weight to hold my feet while I do sit-ups. I have a pull-up bar hanging between two trees outside.
- I don't watch TV. In fact, I try to avoid anything that involves the sitting position. If I have to sit, I prefer the floor, or if I'm watching a movie or reading a book, I prefer laying down. If it's something for a few minutes and I can stand, I'll stand.
I've been doing this for about a year now and it's the best I've ever felt while working this much. What I'd like to start mixing in are some runs or long walks, but right now it's a choice between those or getting sufficient sleep. I prioritize sleep.
Today is day 2 of my standup desk for my home computing. Not enough time to give a summary but one thing I have noticed already is I am moving around a lot more. After about 30 minutes of standing I have do something else, walk outside, or do a few squats or stretch. Reason I built stand up desk are all the reasons in the article.
I exercise regularly and have always thought of a standing desk as far too extreme, Especially as programmers as we need to think though problems over several hours. The added stress of standing would just be far too much.
I had to try it to come to a conclusion. I guess you going to have to give it a shot to know.
Another reason I decided to try it out is that when I am comfortably seated I can spend hours on HN. Yes it is ironic that I am standing and posting on HN but truth be told in 10 or so minutes I will be tired and forced to take a walk. I am hoping to curb some bad online habits by standing.
To add to this - we have a cardiovascular system that is kept moving by our heart pumping. We also have a lymph node system, which is moved around by us walking around (no pump). So if you are completely sedentary this can become blocked up and result in all sorts of problems (random lumps, infections etc)
I've also heard this theory linking movement to joint health:
> Joints get the bulk of their nutrition from range of motion. The vast majority of joints in the body are synovial: two bones surrounded by a leathery capsule filled with fluid. The cartilage surfaces receive very little blood flow. In order to receive nutrition, the joint must “lubricate” itself with the fluid of the joint, absorbing nutrients from the fluid along its surface – via regular, full range of motion.
> When joints stop moving through their full range, elements of cartilage do not get this nutrition. The cartilage dries up. And it is replaced with bone. This, by definition is osteoarthritis. Preceding that, is pain.
--http://www.irunfar.com/2012/10/is-your-plantar-fasciitis-pla...
I tried taking breaks while working with one of those screen alarms that turns into a relaxation / stretching video but couldn't continue doing it. It seemed to go off so often, even though I set it to a recommended time interval. I got annoyed quickly and got rid of it. I too feel guilt every time I read one of these articles. To make matters worse, my desk quickly converts to standing position. I don't know what it is about this laziness but I wish I could beat it. Why can't I be strong :(
The more you sit and the less exercise you do, the less energy do you have to improve.
At least make sure that weekends you have hobby that requires to go outside. If you find yourself walking all the weekend is going to be easier to stand at the office.
I also have tried playing VR games with "room scaling". It forces you to play standing.
The more exercise and time you spend standing, the easier it becomes. But the reverse is also true. If you feel tired all the time, it is hard to start exercising and you need to trick yourself into bootstrapping the habit.
I bought a speed rope and started skipping for 20 minutes every morning while listening to audiobooks. https://rpmtraining.com
It’s cheaper than a gym, needs little space, elevates my heart rate more than running ever did, and there are tricks to learn to keep it fresh and progressively raise the difficulty (double-unders, cross-overs etc.).
I've been using a standing desk now for almost 2 years and stand about 90% of the time. I think it's one of the best decisions I've ever made because it leads to other healthy habits.
Typically you don't stand still at a standing desk. Your legs will naturally want to move and stretch and since you're already standing, you can do this without really being disturbed.
Also, it sounds funny but walking and even running is a nice "break" from standing. It gives you more energy. I tend to break up my day with 2-3x ~2 mile walks.
There's other big wins too like much improved posture (especially if you were like me and sat in crazy positions).
If anyone wants to try out a standing desk without investing hundreds of dollars on an adjustable one I wrote a guide on how to build a custom standing desk to fit your desk[0] (without needing a saw):
Most recent studies on this topic suggest that standing alone is not much (if any) improvement over sitting for long periods; but, you are correct that standing makes it more likely that you will move every few minutes, even seconds, compared to sitting, so that's really where the benefit comes from.
> I tend to break up my day with 2-3x ~2 mile walks.
To be clear, you do ~2 mile walks two to three times per day? So you walk 4 - 6 miles per day? It actually sounds kind of appealing to me—I like walking... but it seems like a serious amount of time, and like finding places to walk might be difficult.
Yep. You can do 2 miles in about 30 minutes. Perfect time to listen to podcasts, audiobooks and clearing your head.
I don't see it as a waste of time. Often times I'll step away from a programming problem and get the solution while walking, which in turn saves time in the long run.
Is that first graph a parody? How am I supposed to compare two subjective assessments? They should have something like average lifespan instead of "death risk" and time spent exercising per week instead of "least-most fitness level".
"From making you fat to squeezing your bones, living a sedentary lifestyle has a plethora of negative benefits to offer. Just to give you a clear indication of how much this new age lifestyle impacts your overall health, here’s a graph which shows how likely are you to die based on your fitness level."
With all due respect, where is the source? The problem is that it is very difficult to prove this scientifically. It is plausible that people who exercise more do other things which increase their health, such as smoke less or not at all, drink less or not at all, eat more healthy, are more content in life, are more rich or more educated, etc.
This is a known result of using what is called "NHST", null hypothesis significance testing, to come to conclusions. It will automatically generate conflicting results and does nothing to lead to cumulative knowledge. Some discussion of that aspect can be found here:
Just curious. Wouldn't evolution eventually take care of this? For most people, sitting down too much would be harmful. But due to mutations/genetic variance, there would be people who are relatively unaffected by prolonged sedentary life. Over time, wouldn't their genetics take over?
It depends on the nature of the harm. If sedentary life reduced the typical lifespan from 70 to 50 (which would be dramatic) but didn't significantly affect your health during your 20s and 30s, it would have little to no effect on reproduction and thus would not be genetically selected.
Seems the study was actually about standing ocupations vs sitting occupations, with nothing about standing desk in traditional sitting occupation workplaces (white collar office settings).
Stopped reading on the first graph. "Relative Death Risk" is presented as numbers without units. Everyone knows exercise is beneficial, this article shouldn't introduce you to anything new.
Well, I think people are aware of that as we have decent client base just for those who want to track their inactivity time (we've developed a chest strap that tracks lying on bed + sitting).
> Anyways, it’s not that complex to tackle this. A few changes in your habits should do the trick.
This is complete garbage. The fact is, there is nothing you do to do 100% reverse the effects of sitting all day. You can maybe improve things by 20% or something like that. Progressive people keep hoping that you can use some kind of technology to change things but you can't. Standing desks don't do anything, standing up every hour doesn't do anything. There is nothing you can do. We are designed a certain way and if we don't live that way our health suffers greatly. The only solution is to go back to living that way no matter how hard you try to believe anything else.
> The only solution is to go back to living that way no matter how hard you try to believe anything else.
Nobody can confidently assert this now; you are stating your belief, not a fact.
We would need to do longitudinal studies on all the alternatives (standing desks, periodic walking) to be able to build up a picture. To my knowledge, that has not yet been done. It may take decades to build up a picture.
Until then, people can choose options based on existing theories. In time, those theories will either be validated or refuted, but they have not yet been.
> Nobody can confidently assert this now; you are stating your belief, not a fact.
What does confidently asserting something have to do with a lack of scientific proof? Personal experience allows people to confidently assert things.
> We would need to do longitudinal studies on all the alternatives (standing desks, periodic walking) to be able to build up a picture. To my knowledge, that has not yet been done. It may take decades to build up a picture.
You can build up a picture on the previous decades where everything has failed. Technology has failed. Standing desks have failed. Current "workstations" were the solution to previous problems, and they have failed. Everything has failed. We are at a turning point where non-science religion people have realised that we can't keep going down the same path while technological messiahs keep claiming the future will be great.
We can look back at the decline in human health. Why do we need tooth paste? It isn't a revolutionary new advance, it is a way to make our teeth slightly better but never better than before farming and industrialisation.
Citation? Because there are a lot of studies on the positive impact of exercise. And there are plenty of very healthy people that spend most of the day sitting but implement spaced exercise plans.
I am not a science article, I am telling you my beliefs, which I am 100% certain are true. Maybe in 600 years, science will be able to tell you the same thing?
> Because there are a lot of studies on the positive impact of exercise.
None of those studies say "this 100% reverses the effects of sitting".
> And there are plenty of very healthy people that spend most of the day sitting but implement spaced exercise plans.
I know experts in health and fitness who spend a lot of the time at the gym who will even admit to you that they can't get their body right. You can watch them implementing standing desks and various things and constantly trying to implement new things. None of them are working because they are constantly still trying to implement new ways to correct their sitting around all day. It will never work because there is no technology solution to anything and there never has been. There is no technological solution to climate change. You can't have 7 billion people on the earth. There is nothing you can do.
I can find quotes from experts in human movement that will say it is impossible to get the muscles back to how they would be if you weren't sitting all day.
Your muscles are fixed in a position. I know pretty much everything there is to know about the muscles involved. The hip flexors are constantly shortened from sitting all day. Some of them attach to your leg, others to your spine. You cannot spend an hour in the gym or stretching and fix 8 hours of sitting. It is simply impossible. I have tried everything you can do. You can strengthen the hip extensors such as the glutes and hamstrings, but it still doesn't work. You can stretch the hip flexors and it still won't work. It just improves things a bit. You will find people all over the internet say "how do I fix my anterior pelvic tilt", and they will continue asking the same questions forever because there are no 100% solutions.
I am using lately 'nearby events happening now' apps to get myself away from the screen on the weekends and meet people for sports and hobbies. It's really liberating.
Meh. I've been sitting at a computer for the past twenty years or so let's be honest.
Yet in just a few months I feel my posture improving since I started psychotherapy and somatic experiencing therapy for trauma. Along with that I go to yoga once or twice a week. It's importnat to note here because I see the cogs spinning already... I actually did yoga years ago and did not notice the same effects. Therapy has been key to the changes I've observed in my posture.
My conclusion is a lot of bodily tensions are connected with unresolved emotional charges. This is related to the nervous system at some level.
My point is that posture, and general routine is symptomatic of your general emotional wellbeing.
As with all things in life, moderation is the key. Just doing a 1h30 yoga class once a week will probably offset much of the problems mentioned in the article.
I mean, I've sat at a computer (both for passion and work) for the past twenty years and have NEVER been fat. In fact I was underweight due to anxiety. I put on some weight in the gym in my early thirties which 70% have stayed without doing any regular exercise (which further confirms a health issue symptomatic of emotional / nervous system troubles affecting appetite).
I suspect that improving posture and making an effort to keep a good posture goes a long way also to offset the problems of sitting.
Don't get me wrong.. I can see in yoga class that sitting a lot has made muscles between inner thigh and pelvis very tight, as well as all the front making it diffuclt to stretch in various postures.
The problem here is assuming that N hours spent sitting equal N equivalent "damage". But that's not how our body works. It may be that you only need a good gym or yoga session just once a week to offset much of the problem. Not that it "undoes" the damage; but rather seeps into the rest of the week with more tonus in posture, and more postural awareness.
TLDR: context. Nobody gets fat because of sitting. If weight is really an issue I would suggest to seek therapy or if you feel that is not needed, try yoga or massage. Anything that takes you out of the left hemisphere's imbalance (cf. "The Divided Brain" by Iaian McGilchrist), and nurture more being in direct contact with the body, sensations, breathing.. as well as being more connected with others outside of intellectual activities. Surprisingly a lot of people think that "socializing" means talking. No, to be truly with others around you, is to be able to be there instead of taking refuge in the mind. That means to be at home in your body and how it feels. It's a journey.. it doesn't need to be taken in a couple days ;)
> ... Reich proposed a functional identity between the character, emotional blocks, and tension in the body, or what he called character (or muscular/body) armour (Charakterpanzer).
Yes I am well aware of Reich and Lowen. As I am in therapy for trauma I have concluded after many experiments that bioenergetics is not complete, and in case of trauma is not very helpful.
The way to heal trauma is to create a safe environment, and for the individual to gradually also come out of dissociation that comes not only from drugs but also anger... one has to put the shield down so to speak.. to be able to regain the full range of physical and emotional sensitivity and feel alive in this world.
With that said, it is one year of self exercises from a bioenergetic book that helped me become aware of the anger I had repressed much of my life. And that was the necessary step to go and reach out for assistance. But once I started therapy the exercises just made things more difficult.
I found the same with chinese plants. Some plants clearly have noticable effects on emotional states, such as Bupleurum, Cyperus, ... by helping release constriction in the solar plexus / liver area. However afterm onths of experimenting with them and in the context of trauma, I can only conclude that it made things more difficult.
In the end, it is consciousness that heals. So no amount of plants of bioenergetics sexercise can heal trauma. That's because they are still a way of controlling experience, while healing is the opposite direction: to release control, to allow everything to bubble up in awareness. Control comes from the left hemisphere, and is precisely what created the suffering in the first place.
In general yoga is always great. The quality really depends on the teacher however. I had a teacher of Iyengar style who was somewhat strict in his approach. His heart was in the right place but he was too focused on "correct" posture.
After a good yoga course of ~1h30.. your mind should feel quiet. If it isn't then it's not a good course. Over time, you should also become aware of bodily tneisons in various areas. ANd perhaps even become aware of old memories, perhaps even cry. Those are completely normal aspects of yoga when it has a therapeutic potential. It happens as consciousness is more evenly distributed in all parts of the body. It restores the left/right brain hemisphere balance, it takes you out of the map, and more in touch with reality in its raw form.
A lot of people in here talking about how they started doing some activity once 2-3 times a week. Wow. Good for you, that can have some nice benefits.
It has nothing to do with the stated concern based on the cited research whatsoever at all.
The issues raised here refer to base level physical activity and its influence on things like triglyceride and cholesterol behaviors. And the repeating pattern is that even small activities, like moving around to get a drink, or just standing, literally doing nothing else, raise you into the threshold where your body is "normal" in how it deals with these things.
Sitting, however, seems to be an outlier, allowing a degradation of these processes. Well guess what? Exercising once a day even won't change that, as the response time is quick. SO this isn't about you being a bike commuter, a rock climber, or a swimmer. It's about sitting specifically. It's about mounting evidence that our bodies evolved to expect constant muscular activity even at low levels and the near zero that happens during sitting is an outlier.
You know, sitting is fairly unusual. In many areas of the world, both ancient and modern, people don't really sit. They squat, or stand, or shuffle around, but full on sitting is uncommon for a lot of people. I betcha the ol' asian/slavic squat activates enough muscles to not count as sitting.
In one of the papers they even concede that heavy fidgeting might be enough to breach the threshold.
So really what we're talking about is getting out of your chair, moving around, all the time if possible. Yeah that's hard for a programmer. Plus you can't ignore even very current research showing that standing itself, is harmful when doing it too much (for totally unrelated reasons.) So standing desks are a bad plan too.
You know, I can't sit that long. I am not too worried about this for me. I shift around too much. Stand and wander in thought, get drinks, go to the bathroom, slide off my chair and kneel at the desk. Grab the tablet and flop around all over the house (I WFH 100%.) I go crazy staying at the desk constantly, for work anyway. Let's not talk about leisure time :)
But upon reviewing a number of these studies, this is apparently exactly what's needed. Standing 1 minute every hour isn't a enough, no. But it's the right direction. The problem mainly being that sitting in a chair requires little to no physical effort at all whatsoever. That's the issue.
Exercising 2, 3, 5 days a week, 1-2-3 hours? Doesn't matter. Don't confuse the two issues.
That said, I bet those goofy desk bicycling things you put by your chair would do the trick, assuming they actually require some level of effort.
But sedentary life of scientists brought all the advances in medicine, thanks to which the life expectancy went up. I prefer sedentary lifestyle with modern medicine to active hunting lifestile and life expectancy of 50.
Sedentary behaviour raises your mortality rate, so your life expectancy while living a sedentary lifestyle may be just as short. A balance of movement but not over exerting is likely a good compromise. It's thought that the it is the light, regular physical activity of those on the island of Ikaria that gives them their recently famed longevity.
'Did you get that email I sent you?'
Ahhhhhh~ No. Please don't.
There's plenty of good advice on this article, but be careful that the things that you do for yourself don't negatively impact other people; that's not be healthy, its being thoughtless and selfish.