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Ask YC: Story for Forbes - How do you spend zero on legal fees?
16 points by wschroter on March 5, 2008 | hide | past | favorite | 18 comments
Doing a story for Forbes on how entrepreneurs can avoid legal fees by being a lot more creative and resourceful. Anyone have some good methods they've used for getting employment contracts, stock option agreements, partner contracts, term sheets, etc. done for nothing? I'm thinking this thread could also be a good resource for other readers on this board.


I fought a long and expensive legal battle all throughout college, which I eventually won. I was able to get 50% pro-bono rates because I had started a 501(c)3 non-profit that had a related interest in the case.

I once avoiding having to hire an attorney to sue a non-paying client by suing the company myself in small claims court for $30 in fees. You can't file anything electronically, and the courts like old-fashioned cash or checks payments in person, so it's anathema to the ways high-tech entrepreneurs, but it worked. I got a check for the remaining amount the next day; the other company simply didn't want to show up for court.

Writing blunt letters to the CEOs of large companies can be effective. I've saved thousands of dollars in costs by writing letters. I inadvertently ended up altering the manufacturing process for a well-known company's blade servers, as well.

Writing blunt letters to lawyers who overbill you can also be effective. I've been billed for other clients' time, billed double for a new attorney to join a case due to the original attorney having to go on maternity leave, billed for "this isn't my area of expertise" as advice, etc. The law firm may not agree to work with you again afterward, but they won't make you pay if you have a point. After all, they have bigger fish to fry.

Gold and platinum credit cards have extended warranty programs that will usually take care of issues with faulty equipment that would otherwise probably require a lawsuit to actually gain anything. I've saved several thousand dollars thanks to such programs, as well.

Lastly, I was able to borrow some standard agreements from my family business.


all great points - can you drop me a msg at wschroter@yahoo.com so I can ask some specific questions?


Law firms in startup hubs offer deferred-fee deals to the most promising startups. Typically you can use up to $25k worth of time and they won't bill you till you do a big (series A) funding round. Several firms, including those regarded as the best in the Valley, offer such deals to all YC-funded startups.


Do you need an introduction or a recommendation to get started with those firms, or can you just call them up and make an appointment?


You need an intro. Ditto for VCs.


So far, I've gotten all my legal stuff done by:

1. Doing tons of research and being well-versed in the legal field. This is good stuff to know anyway, so I put the time in at the beginning learning how to do it myself. And you save a lot of money by drafting the documents yourself (pulling from examples online) and then just paying a lawyer to review them, rather than going to a lawyer and paying them to pull out one of their standard templates.

2. When it does come time to get a lawyer to review your documents, find one you trust through personal referrals and then hope that their website needs some work. Then, in you come to the rescue ;)


Thanks NoBS - do you remember any of the sites you tapped to get some of the original legal terms?

edw - the idea for the article is that there is a fair amount of legwork you can do yourself to avoid legal fees without wasting a ton of your time either. For example, it takes less than 20 minutes to incorporate your biz at MyCorporation.com and it's only about $300. I've done 3 companies through them. So I'm just trying to provide entrepreneurs with some quick/easy resources.


Mostly, what I did at the time was googled something like "example operation agreement" and went from there.

A new site I like is http://www.docstoc.com

Also, check out the Nolo series of books. Those are awesome and usually come with a CD with a bunch of stock templates.


Some cities (such as my own) have small business development centers that offer free legal advice (free as in tax payers, unfortunately). I've also talked to law professors at my school for "I can't provide legal advice, but I would recommend doing x, oh and I also can't tell you that I would change y."

So, universities (if you're a student) and local small business development centers are great resources if you're strapped for cash. The third choice would be legalzoom.com. That's a last resort area for me.


1. Write some code.

2. Register a domain.

3. Copy and modify Terms of Service and Privacy Policy from someone else.

4. Write some more code.

5. Profit.


I read the book: The Entrepreneur's Guide to Business Law

Great read with a lot of practical advice - This really helped me discuss issues with potential attorneys. In addition, after selecting our attorney, we were able to lower our cost by asking more pointed and specific questions.

Also, I was able to use some template documents that I worked with at a previous job, to include: NDA's, Contractors, Term sheets - I took these documents and massaged to our liking - In cases where we needed a more 'bullet-proof' contract, I forward my copy to our attorney for review. This has saved a lot of money.


I think that the old adage "time, quality, money - pick two" applies here as well.

I can get standardised contracts, NDA's etc. off the net, read through them, google a little legalese, and put something together that works. The longer I spend the better it gets. Of course a lawyer would be able to do in one hour what I spend 15 hours doing.


I thought the old adage was "smart, sexy, sane - pick two"... and it didn't relate to legal fees.


I took a Harvard Law Class entitled Electronic Commerce that was immensely helpful (and I wasn't otherwise a law school student). Also: Nolo, Lexis Nexis, The Teaching Company, lawyer relatives, blogs, etc.


You'd think that someone from Forbes would know that you get what you pay for.


It has been my experience when dealing with attorneys, who are usually priced at around $350 per hour, that your statement is rarely true.


So what is one to do? Hire a cheap lawyer? A young lawyer? An $800 per hour attorney? None of the above?


It depends what you need done. Any corporate lawyer should be able to handle an incorporation or vesting documents. They'll probably just hand it off to a lower-paid associate (or if they don't, ask them to), so it almost doesn't matter who you hire. They won't be doing the work. It does matter that you trust them so that you're not surprised when the bill comes. On the other hand, if you find yourself needing a criminal defense lawyer for a specialized case at the last minute, you might very well find yourself paying that hypothetical $800 per hour attorney.

In worst case scenarios, you can always harass law school professors, who are sometimes amused by the interesting travails of undergraduates and non-law graduate students.

Basically, just pray you never need to hire any of them.




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