> And as IBM reported a couple weeks ago, even at higher prices, Macs tend to be cheaper to own.
>but that still puts me only about $1600 into this device
I always forget how dis-attached and money-blind pro-apple authors are from the 98% of people and how they approach money. I guess if I was in the 1%, I'd also think Apple was the cheap option! (I'd probably also think that about Lexus and BMW...)
$1600 over 6 years, or about $270 a year, is not inexpensive and the false label "cheaper to own" is absurd to the highest degree.
I could go out right now and buy a $600 laptop, a $200 chromebook, and be out $800 dollars. Then I could build a $500 rather powerful budget desktop, and be at $1300, with three devices, and have $300 leftover for repairs or upgrades.
I could buy a $800 laptop and another one in 3-6 years for that price.
I could buy an iPad, a Chromebook, and a $600 laptop. I could buy three $500 laptops.
There is no universe in existence where spending $1600 total cost of ownership in 6 years approaches ANYTHING CLOSE to "cheaper to own".
Frankly, I DON'T EVEN KNOW windows users who have spent $1600 in the past 6 years total, except for hardcore PC gamers whose hardware so dramatically eclipses the medium-grade consumer level tech in Apple laptops that to compare them is entertaining and silly.
When my son went to college I told him, you can have an AirBook, or you can get a Levono Yoga and replace it every 2 years. He choose the Yoga and he is still using it 3 years later.
If the machines have the same build quality (or, another more subtle thing Apple's laptops have, an air around them that they should be handled with care) and the software is secure (Windows had (has?) real problems with viruses and shit), then I don't see why anyone would have to replace their laptop after 5 years anymore. CPU's are fast enough and software isn't getting more bloated. Memory is abundant and cheap. SSD's solved the last main bottleneck in computers 5+ years ago.
I have a PC at home, almost passing the 5 year mark now. No problems with it, fast enough, plays the latest games. Only problems I've had with it was corrupted memory banks, but I'm inclined to think that's more to do with installing it myself than anything.
How do viruses relate to hardware longevity? Are there viruses in the wild bricking Windows PCs?
I bought an $850 Thinkpad T410 in 2010. Every time I've checked new laptops in the past couple of years I concluded that it wasn't worth upgrading - I'd only get a twofold increase in performance for $800+.
(Also reduced weight and increased battery life, but as a 6 ft. guy with a roommy backpack, carrying a 5 lbs laptop and a 1.5 lbs spare battery is not a problem.)
It still works fine but I ended up buying a higher spec'ed* mint-condition refurbished T410 for $250 this year, and a USB3 expansion card. I expect to get a good run out of it since I can cannibalize the old one for parts.
Not everyone has the time and know-how to service their own laptop, but for someone who does, like me, the nice thing with the Thinkpad ecosystem is the abundance of cheap end-of-lease refurbished parts and accessories, which are i) cheap and ii) probably better maintained than what you can get used from some bloke on craigslist.
(But the flipside is that new Lenovo parts and accessories are horrendously overpriced, since they target businesses.)
*HDD vs SSD, 8gb vs 4gb memory, i7 vs i5, 1400x900 vs 1280x800, discrete vs integrated graphics.
My Lenovo, which cost >$800 and had a $120 SSD upgrade from 2007 still runs just fine. What alternative evidence is there that macs last longer other than fanatical circle jerking?
Do those upgrades listed include labor at apple care? The numbers don't even add up.
Not to mention, unless there have been some large strides in macOS lately, older apple products seem to lag pretty hard when you upgrade to the current OS and basically stop working if you don't. Windows 10 runs great on old PCs and many apps still function all the way back to Windows Vista.
The IBM guy said Macs are more expensive to buy but cheaper to support, because
>Only 5% of IBM's Mac employees needed help-desk support, versus 40% of PC users
Guessing what percentage of Linux users needed help desk support is left as an exercise to the reader.
The economics of a business maintaining a fleet of laptops for mostly clueless users vs a tech-savvy individual maintaining their own laptop are not the same.
Also keep in mind that IBM started a Mac enterprise integration service last year. I'll let you draw your own conclusions.
From what I found, Apple's laptops are sligthly above average in terms of reliability [0]. Sqaretrade sells warranties though, so there might be some selection bias, but I'm not sure if it would benefit Apple or not.
I'm willing to assume the selection bias affects all brands in a similar enough way to call it even. The bigger issues is that this is 7 years old now, I wouldn't rely on it too much unless you're buying an 8-10 year old laptop.
Indeed. As soon as you're willing to accept something a bit less pretty and slighly clunkier in usability, you can save a huge amount of money over Apple devices.
> Remember the original 128K Macintosh cost more than $2400 and it was close to useless.
As opposed to the other 68K offerings at the time it was pretty good, it brought window managed user interfaces to the masses (rather than those Apollo workstations that probably nobody remembers).
The ST was a game changer price wise but that 'useless' 128K Mac in many ways wrote history.
>oh my, once you discover the concept of TCO your mind will be blown.
Haha I love when users attempt to act condescending, but actually demonstrate their own reading comprehension failure.
TCO --- you mean TOTAL COST OF OWNERSHIP, a concept I discussed at length in the post you're replying to?
Wow, imagine that. I'd love to discover a topic for the first time that I already discussed at length with over 4 different total cost comparisons, including repairs and upgrades.
EDIT: IF we want to do TCO, mind you, I notice pro-apple folks don't include the $100-$200 of mandatory spider-web adapters you have to buy, as well. TCO is complicated and it's easy for Apple fans to hide the significantly overpriced Apple accessory costs from it :)
One has to consider the total cost of ownership for the average user as well. Most of the people who come to HN probably know how to avoid or clean up malware on a Windows machine, but your average computer user doesn't. Macs are the perfect mix of usability and obscurity that keep them relatively stable in the hands of the less internet savvy.
Case in point, my landlords have an old AMD64 (single core, 2.4 GHz, I think) system with 1 gig of RAM, running Vista. For the past five years, they've called me at least four times per year to come out to their house and clean up browser extensions and unwanted software that piggybacked on other program's installers. I don't charge them since I consider it a favor, but each time they pay me at least $50.
So that cheapo computer cost them $1000 over the past five years. They could've spent less than that, up front, and got a middle of the road refurbished Mac and likely would've never (or rarely) had to call me at all. I've suggested this or a flavor of Linux too, but they're afraid of change. Instead, they recently bought a little Dell netbook running Windows 10 for $270, and I expect the calls will keep coming.
Frankly, a $300 Chromebook serves that "usability / obscurity" niche for 95% of those users for 1/5 the price.
You don't need a $1200 laptop to browse the internet safely.
This is a part of the "price blindness" of pro Apple users who are unwilling to consider the sub $1000 market, and seek to rationalize the value of what is fairly the worlds most expensive mass produced luxury laptop.
Wanting a Mac is fine, but pretending it's a cost-conscious decision that returns great value for the average internet browser is pretty ridiculous IMO.
What does a $1200 macbook do that a $500 iPad can't for the average user?
>I've suggested this or a flavor of Linux too, but they're afraid of change.
But go ahead and continue making assumptions about how "price blind" I am. I'm far from an Apple fanboy, but Apple is a brand that most people recognize, and yet usually stays free from the issues that Windows has among the less technologically inclined (which includes my 60-something year old landlords).
so we're against any notebooks now, as a typical user only ever needs a tablet? great, you've confirmed Apple's strategy across PCs and iPads (incl. the iPad Pro).
they're abandoning the Air and cheaper lines for that very reason - the iPads and iPhones are good enough now.
MPBs are now a testing ground for new inputs (Touchbar) and port unification. Eventually they all add a full touchscreen keyboard, once it can do haptic response (see the iPhone7 home button for a preview). first the Touchbar will become haptic, so we're at least 2 iterations away from it.
Actually more likely that this thing then ends up in the iPad product line, fully destroying the classic PC line. but who knows.
same issues apply, even worse for home users. spyware, crapware, win10 upgrades, hardware issues, etc. - but where do you go for help? family or best buy?
>but that still puts me only about $1600 into this device
I always forget how dis-attached and money-blind pro-apple authors are from the 98% of people and how they approach money. I guess if I was in the 1%, I'd also think Apple was the cheap option! (I'd probably also think that about Lexus and BMW...)
$1600 over 6 years, or about $270 a year, is not inexpensive and the false label "cheaper to own" is absurd to the highest degree.
I could go out right now and buy a $600 laptop, a $200 chromebook, and be out $800 dollars. Then I could build a $500 rather powerful budget desktop, and be at $1300, with three devices, and have $300 leftover for repairs or upgrades.
I could buy a $800 laptop and another one in 3-6 years for that price.
I could buy an iPad, a Chromebook, and a $600 laptop. I could buy three $500 laptops.
There is no universe in existence where spending $1600 total cost of ownership in 6 years approaches ANYTHING CLOSE to "cheaper to own".
Frankly, I DON'T EVEN KNOW windows users who have spent $1600 in the past 6 years total, except for hardcore PC gamers whose hardware so dramatically eclipses the medium-grade consumer level tech in Apple laptops that to compare them is entertaining and silly.