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According to [1] even Barcelona football (soccer) players were pushed to learn Catalan, even experiencing racism for wanting to speak Spanish.

[1] https://app.football-espana.net/?referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww....


Do you have any sources on that? As far as I know they had the same rights given by the Crown (legally at least).


Legitimate mestizos enjoyed privileges. Otherwise they had to stay close to their parents.

But native women could not represent themselves in court so they could not challenge a Spanish man to recognize their children.


Interesting tale about a Columbus voyage to Ireland. Have any info on that?


According to [1], slaved population by Aztec was sacrificed by the thousands, so I could see the slaved people treating the newcomers as gods, or more likely liberators and joining them in the war against Aztec Empire.

[1] https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/06/feeding-gods-hundred...


Do you really think that a hundred of undisciplined soldiers could fight and won a war against an empire? Spanish conquerors were lucky that Aztecs were hated by other natives and allied them.

It was more like a civil war than a conquest.


Yeah, a lot of people simplify it and say it was guns, horses, and armor that allows Cortes to conquer the Aztecs, but I eventually learned that it was nothing like that.

The guns, horses, and armor (although there were only a few relatively primitive guns, mainly cannon) did offer an advantage, their opponents learned to deal with these elements. A couple hundred against tens of thousands will lose even with the tech advantage.

They really only had a chance because they found lots of allies willing to overthrow their cruel oppressors. Even then, something like half of the Spaniards were killed in the street fighting in what is today Mexico City, both in the initial escape after negotiations went downhill and the return with a large army.

The Conquest of New Spain by Bernal Diaz contains an interesting account of the fighting that took place, and he makes it clear that their allies were essential to their victory. It's a fascinating read.


Do you have any sources of that? Claiming 8 million people were slaved is a bit of stretch, don't you think?


Literally the first thing that comes from google search of this. Plus they claim this number when you are actually there in their museum dedicated specifically to this horrible part of their history. Visited last year, some 'jobs' around smelting had survivability in mere weeks because of all the toxicity.

Plus took a trip quite deep into the mines themselves. Imagine mountain that is almost 4800m high, drilled through like a proper swiss emmental cheese (they claim around 500 different entrances to tunnel system).


Another victim of Black Legend...


Please enlighten me


The Spanish try to whitewash their atrocities by speaking of a purposeful campaign of defamation from rival powers.

So successful it was, apparently, that it made disctinct stories of Spanish brutality materialize in every country in the Americas.

The legend of the Black Legend also emphasizes the enlightenment of the Crown's laws regarding the legal status and treatment of indigenous peoples.

Unfortunately the rumors spread by the English about the treatment of natives were so convincing, that the Spanish conquistadors and encomenderos also came to believe that they had the right to enslave the indians and create a racial caste system where mestizos would live as serfs for centuries.

Or maybe it just was that the laws were never effectively enforced.


Not true at all. English made propaganda about supposed atrocities and that propaganda is alive today: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_legend


Yes, it is alive because the Spanish did do things like cutting the hands and feet of entire indigenous settlements, as they did with the village from which the mapuche general who resisted the initial Spanish drive into Chile suffered.

The somewhat reasonable laws regarding the encomienda system were pervasively circumvented by the encomenderos by always demanding tribute in labor, and having it paid for generations.

The mestizaje and conversion to Christianity was used, in the end, to also circumvent laws regarding the treatment of natives by creating an entirely new underclass of people lacking in rights.

The Black Legend is what's known in Latin America as "history".


Spain recognized independence of Mapuche Nation after more than one hundred years of war [1][2].

Chile and Argentina started a war campaign against them [2][3][4]. The Mapuches call it the Last Massacre (La última masacre in Spanish)[1].

[1] https://www.mapuche-nation.org/english/html/m_nation/main/m_...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arauco_War

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Araucan%C3%ADa

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquest_of_the_Desert


Yes, it's a complex issue that evolved over the course of centuries. But it's a remarkable exception that the Mapuche managed to settle a border with the Crown.

I've never said that Chile was any better. I mean, it was in comparison to some periods, the early conquest saw mutilation as collective punishment and impalement as execution of POWs.

What you just said isn't a defense of the Spanish Empire. If anything it is about the capacity to resist of the Mapuche and the power of decentralized self-organization. There just wasn't an emperor-high priest to kidnap and extort the Mapuche into surrendering like with the Aztecs or the Inca.


Aztecs were conquered with the help of other slaved tribes. Do you really thing that several sailors could conquering an empire of millions? Spaniards were helped by Aztec enemies.


I'm not defending anybody, just setting some historical context.


Spanish Crown edicted some laws to protect the natives https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_Burgos

What legal protection had the native population in the American colonies or British Empire?


Australian native population did not have land rights until 1970-1979 [1]

[1] https://indigenousrights.net.au/timeline/1970-79


Pretty interesting how independent latin-american governments succeeded in conquering native lands and subjugating native population: See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Araucan%C3%ADa

Please note I'm giving sources.


I know that Latin American successor states then went on to do the same and worse.

The Chilean Congress only this year acknowledged the genocide of the peoples in Tierra del Fuego, perpetrated by mercenaries of settlers of various nationalities with total impunity from the Chilean state.

Do look up the Wikipedia article on the War of Arauco for accounts of the cruelty of Pizarro and Pedro de Valdivia. As I said, the enforcement of the various laws regarding the indigenous populations were... lacking in enforcement.


As time passes our society should be judged more severely. You can't judge actions of XVI century, bit you can sure judge actions of XX century.



Ok, my point stands exactly the same. Spain DOES NOT OWN any land in the American continent, the spanish empire is long gone, October 12th should NOT be the spanish national celebration. Focus on the present, not on the past.


Where is that money? Was it lost to corruption, mismanagement or incompetence?


Time. Time multiplies costs. Time is the destroyer of worlds. Mismanagement and corruption can burn time, but in general I think much bigger factors are regulation, which requires coordination among distant, unmotivated entities, difficult even with good project management; and 2) inevitable bureaucratic and democratic squabbles that continually impose new hurdles and regularly move the goal posts.

Also consider inflation. If a project is 5 or 10 years late, simple inflation can blow up reported budgets by large fractions. When people report that California High Speed Rail will end up costing $100 billion, like 30-40% of that is simply counting inflation-adjusted costs at the time of expenditure for the extended timelines. But most people think that's $100 billion in today's dollars.

My rule as a voter is that once a project is approved, I'll vote against or oppose any modification to the project, even if I didn't want the project or would really like the modification. I realize there are often rational reasons for modifications, but in public works the risk of burning too much time is simply too high. No project will be perfect; just get it done, already. If it made sense in year 1 when approved, it should make as much sense in year 20, otherwise it should never have begun.


Probably all of them. We tend to think corruption first because the guy that was highest authority in the region for decades (and the capo of independentists mafia) is charged with accusations of a massive and systemic institutional corruption, that extracted 3% of every public contract.

The guy has been found to hold foreign accounts with astronomical amounts. That's not even controversial, he's more or less confessed, but he's not jailed yet after years of investigation and mountains of evidence.

Still that's not 3%, but multiple 100%'s.


It Montreal, it will cost more... the corruption is more than 3% either...


Do you have any independent sources of that?


what do you mean "independent"? All the major catalan and spanish newspapers are talking about this (with quite different points of view, depending on the political leaning of the mediun).


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