Societies globally are expected to collapse around 2040s-2050s and I hope that'll be the wake up call that won't be too late for the very few children of today who are going to survive it.
The need to have an extension of consciousness is a weird phenomenon to recognize. I can't talk about religion in general because all religions are merely interpretations but the idea of a supernatural all-powerful being whom, for starters, we can delegate responsibilities and explanations to is very comforting. All roads go to our inability as humans to deal with death, the end, and the idea of nothingness. Life is easier when we believe.
I remember one time when this discussion was applied to the necessity of having a spouse or very close friend instead of the necessity of religion, and it provoked a heated response. I have to wonder if there are some people who can only live fulfilled lives during the times someone else is there for them.
> Penal labor in the United States is explicitly allowed by the 13th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
They are "forced" to work at below minimum wage rates both for the government and individual firms in public-private partnerships.
I use "forced" in quotation marks, because although prisoners are no longer forced chain-gang style, these jobs can be a prisoner's only source of money, which is required to purchase communication with the outside world.
Is this work economically valuable/worthwhile to whoever is employing them? What are the profit margins that their employers make from their prison labor?
Near where I grew up there's a state prison called Angola, built in 1880 on the site of an old plantation called Angola. The slave quarters were repurposed as the original prisoner quarters. Mostly-black prisoners raise cotton and other crops for pennies on the hour, overseen by mostly-white officers called "freemen."
Why not? Slavery seems completely reasonable as a punishment. Many people choose it as an alternate to non-slave prison sentences. ("Community Service.")
It's the brutality and the length of sentence that may make it bad.
When you checked last time did you also check Reagan and the 80s? US prison system is and has been private for years and that makes the entire "pipeline" from streets all the way to prison private.
Just like the 13th still allows slavery for prisoners, the ECOA still allows discrimination if the person can't afford the home, incentivizing the system to make housing as expensive as possible: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/OEHRENWBSHNO
> the ECOA still allows discrimination if the person can't afford the home, incentivizing the system to make housing as expensive as possible
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Are you saying that you will sell your house to someone who can't afford it, possibly for a much reduced price?
What is your point then? What you are trying to say? Your words give the impression that you believe when a person cannot afford a house, that is discrimination.
I don't get what's so difficult to understand here. It used to be straight-up illegal for certain people to live certain places. The system shifted to covert discrimination once that overt discrimination was outlawed. Housing became an investment so the people with equity would never want to dismantle the system, and all the accessible jobs went away. Now the people who used to be overtly discriminated against have no ladder to climb.
Since each of the people who responded to you, responded similarly, then perhaps the obstacle was your original wording and not with the people who replied.
What you wrote in this post is entirely different from what you wrote in your prior post.
When it's coupled with an economy that disenfranchises certain groups over others, yes, exactly. Like how America offshored all the manufacturing jobs that used to provide for the middle class.
The thing about smoking is that when you quit smoking you quit it every day. Imagine a light switch on the wall. You turn it off by quitting smoking and you can always go back at a desperate time for instance and turn it on. And some time later off again. Smoking your first cigarette implants that light switch on your mind and you can't make it go away. Since you know how it makes you feel good when the switch is on, you at some level desire to back to it. Whole idea of quitting smoking is then finding ways to stop yourself from turning it on again and this is true until you die. So do yourself a favor and avoid any substance that creates such light switches in your mind.
Edit: Of course this is not the case for 100% of humans. Everyone is different. Some weak some strong in willpower, discipline, etc. But we can all agree that it is an addiction that sucks life out of you slowly. You wouldn't want to test your willpower your whole life against such a sneaky enemy.
I quit smoking, and it was very very hard. I don't agree with you that the addiction, need and nicotine + other triggers will remain with me until the end of time.
Deprogramming is part of the process of quitting to smoke. I do now never want to smoke. It is not attractive to me as a way to relax or focus. I can stand in a tobacco section of an airport taxfree shop holding a 5 cartons in my hands with absolutely no desire to smoke. Likewise for being around other people who smoke. There is no creeping need, no urge.
The deprogramming comes last. When it came around for me, it was gradual but it did definitely come. There is no way, not a chance in the world that I would somehow "relapse". It just is not interesting to me any more.
EDIT:
*On slaying the dragon*
I want to add the timeframes, which could be useful as anecdotal data.
It took me 9 months after my last cigarette to get rid of the "critical urges".
Then after that it took another 12 months to get rid of the sweet itch I would get. After that period it was gone completely, and I mean absolutely completely. It was an exorcism. To anyone trying to quit smoking; know this, if you fight through it, it all does go away.
+1. I quit smoking a little over a decade ago, gradually, by winnowing myself down cigarette-by-cigarette. If I smoked six cigarettes a day, for the next two weeks I'd smoke five; by the end of two weeks I'd stop feeling the urge for a sixth. Then I'd move down to four, etc etc, until finally I was down to two and just stopped entirely.
For the first year after stopping regularly smoking, I still felt the urge when drinking, and sometimes would have a cigarette with drinks on the weekend. After two years, I mostly stopped even wanting that.
For many years after, cigarette smoke still smelled good to me, although I had no daily urge for one. But eventually even the positive association with the smell faded, and now I'm back to the original state of thinking cigarettes smell bad.
Nicotine's hooks run deep, but they're not permanent. Stay away long enough and you'll eventually make it back to wondering why anyone smokes in the first place.
I think it's important for people who are addicted to know that quitting is possible — you aren't permanently rewired. And it doesn't have to consume your life.
Equally. I haven't wanted a cigarette for a few years now, the first 2 or 3 months were very challenging-what worked for me in the end was cold turkey and a strong will to quit and someone who believed in me to help me through it. If you don't want to quit, you won't. Try next time until it works. The first 2 or 3 years, I kept finding myself reminding my brain that I don't smoke, I missed my smoking-buddy (myself-it's a different kind of lonely when you are with a cigarette, it's a kind of comfort). Some years later I forgot I even used to smoke. Deprogramming, exactly as you say. The addict just stops visiting and you forget about her.
You must have enormous will power to taper nicotine.
I'm addicted to nicotine, though not cigarettes (though I do smoke on social ocasions, but the nicotine in just one cigarette available in the EU does nothing for me), and I've "quit" numerous times for months, but my (undiagnosed) ADHD brings me back to it.
It is such a perverse stimulant.
I've taken hardcore stimulants and never got addicted, but nicotine has such a small half-life that it's impossible to not get addicted.
While I'm on more powerful stimulants I don't need nicotine to do my work(in fact I can go without if I don't have to work).
For me, tapering nicotine was about as hard as getting daily exercise. Instead of a bit of muscle soreness or tension, I'd get a mild headache towards the end of the day for the first few days of a two-week cycle. About halfway through the two weeks it would usually stop, and while I'd still want the extra cigarette, I wouldn't get a headache from skipping it.
I suspect if you're using enough nicotine that you can't feel the effect of a cigarette, you're probably using a lot more than I was getting from smoking. I'm not sure if my advice is equally useful for you, but I hope you manage to kick the addiction cycle at some point.
Thanks for this. It's important that smokers yet to quit hear this message. Quitting is not impossible and it won't consume the rest of your life.
I gave up after 20 years of pretty much constant smoking. I will cave and have one with a friend who still smokes while drinking once in a while. Not perfect but better than smoking a pack a day.
I used to smoke. I started smoking while drinking and the reason is that it feels fucking amazing. People don't smoke for no reason. They smoke because it feels good. Really good.
The long-term health consequences don't feel real when you're young. It's easy to dismiss, even if you logically understand the risks.
The expense is not a problem. Utterly unimportant.
The addictive aspect is a subtle beast. It creeps up on you slowly. At first, smoking is a great, fun thing to do every once in a while. It's a great, fun thing to do with friends. Slowly, every once in a while turns into every day. Then, a few times a day. Now you need a cigarette to start the day right. You try to cut back and only then realize you're addicted.
> I started smoking while drinking and the reason is that it feels fucking amazing
I have smoked about 5 cigarettes in my life, also when drinking as a young adult. It was honestly unpleasant for me; the feeling of hot smoke in my lungs was definitely not a natural taste to me.
I have always thought that people powered through the initial distaste for smoke to fit in, and then they acquired a taste for it (or became addicted and thus associated the smoke in the lungs with the nicotine rush, not sure).
Was I wrong? Did that first cigarette feel amazing to you? Was the first drag a pleasant feeling? Genuinely curios!
You don’t inhale solely through the cigarette until you’re a seasoned smoker. You suck a bit of smoke in as you breathe in, gradually more as you get used to it.
Smoking never made sense to me until I spent some time in an English winter. It warms the air up when it’s so cold it hurts to breathe. The nicotine feels nice as well.
I only ever smoked a few times though. It started to feel normal and I took this warning sign to heart and stopped forever.
For me I thought I would never be able to like the cigarette. I hated smoke(not just of cigarette) for my life and my eyes were sensitive to smoke. I hated the smell of cigarette too. But, oh boy I was so wrong in thinking it would never become part of my life.
Also if you hate smoke smell like I did, you tend to smoke wrongly and fail to fill your lungs with smoke. In that case you wouldn't even get the "buzz" of the cigarette while still feeling bad smell.
it's a pleasant social activity when you're young; you have a ritual you perform together and share informal bonding time. smoking also gives a physical sense of relief once you're addicted to it and it gives you something to punctuate your day with, little benchmarks -- i will finish writing these emails so i can have a cigarette, etc.
i smoked for 8 years then switched to vaping. i don't want to vape for the rest of my life, but there was an obvious difference in my fitness as soon as i quit (e.g. being able to run twice as far without stopping). i also smell better and my teeth are whiter. i'm glad that i switched, but it doesn't share the same ritual feeling when you can just pull a drag at any arbitrary time.
When I was much younger I was the only non-smoker in an office of about 10 people. This included the owner and his wife who also worked there. Several times a day one or more of them would spend ~15 minutes loitering around smoking a cigarette. I'm prone to throwing myself into my work, even back then, and so initially this didn't really bother me. But, eventually the imbalance in workplace expectations, around scheduled breaks up against this informal unscheduled break they all benefited from, started to bug me. Sooooooo... one day I just start going outside randomly and standing around looking at the trees and listening to the birds for 10-15 minutes at a time. A few days of this went by and my boss (the owner) asked me what I was doing (insinuating I should get back to work). I said, "The same thing the rest of you do everyday, just without the part where I'm also lighting money and my wellbeing on fire. Sometimes I eat an apple or a banana though." Thankfully he was the sort to be reasoned with and saw my point. Shortly thereafter he quit smoking.
Oh, it didn't end perfectly. His wife was the office manager, and grew to resent me immensely for being perceived as inspiring her husband's change in behavior. Less smoking, more walking, dietary changes, etc. Unlike him, she had less than zero interest in any of those lifestyle changes and it created strife, which palpably transfered to me all the way up until I eventually quit.
There's a very serious cost to living with the cynical perspective your comment expresses. If you think that people will only change when you have authority or leverage over them, and that they will always ignore reason, you'll pass by hundreds of chances to reach equitable mediums over your life, and get nothing in return except a little saved inconvenience of never opening discussions with a less than 100% chance of success.
I find people that envy smokers for their breaks pretty pathetic. All it really implies is that these envious people dont know how to manage their own time. If I want a break, I take a break. If I dont need a break, I go on. But that doesnt have anything to do with my coworkers. As long as I am not the boss, its not my bussiness to do time management for others.
Annoyingly there can be slight imbalance. If a smoker takes 10 min break every hour, it's seen as "ok, he's just having a smoke". If a nonsmoker takes the same 10 mins break to check on their phone, or just chill outside, it's "oh, I've noticed you're away from your desk quite often". It's not a rule, but I've seen this happen more often that not.
Actually, where I live, people working with monitors have 10 min break every hour, by law. Most people dont use that. And no, I have never heard a case where a non-smoker was bullied for taking a 15 minute break. Never. I guess I should praise my place of birth and workplace.
Maybe you should, because I've experienced it a few times. Not in recent years though, as smoking has become a minority thing in all the offices I've seen in the last 5 years.
Yes. Actually I've not noticed it in the last 10 years and seemingly everybody has stopped smoking, but before that...
Taking many smoke breaks per day - no problem. Standing in the office kitchen for 5 minutes with a fresh coffee "why aren't you working" in voiced form or just the looks.
In some companies we just made "team smoke breaks" with non-smokers randomly joining, either to chat or continue discussing work and I felt that was the best solution (unless people wanted to be alone for 5 minutes). Either you have stuff to talk about anyway or depending on the ratio of smokers to non-smokers there was some form of interaction.
I did never smoke a cigarette, but I always went to pause with my smoking coworkers.
Maybe I'm making up false assumptions, but coincidentally, those coworkers were the smartest one in my mind. I don't think cigarette had anything to do with this, but I'm somehow convinced that going outside 10-15min multiple times a day is an excellent for productivity and to build strong working (and personal) relationships.
COVID WFH apart, now that I'm working with non smokers, I really miss those times and as much as I appreciate my current coworkers, I don't like them as much as I used to like my fellow smokers.
If you are a non smoker working with smokers you appreciate talking to, try going outside with them. Smoker's pause is where everything is said without filter and where hierarchy really disappears.
I don't smoke, but my roommate does. After living in the same house for a couple of years, now, I think I understand the social aspect of why people start. A cigarette break is the perfect amount of time to sit down and have a little chat, and provides a reason to stop once it's done, too. Meet on the deck, catch up on each other's day, see you later, back to work. That kind of thing.
Never smoked but always liked to get out of the office with my smoking friends for some (ironically) fresh air and a chat. There was a bit of zen in this. And hey, my lungs didn't have to pay price for it :)
I can totally understand that. I would just suggest to reconsider coffee/tea drinking in that regard (or whatever drink might serve as a substitute).
Already when studying/researching at Uni having a cup of coffee together did serve as such a communal break, catching up, etc. When I did an abroad term in Canada what hit me by surprise is that people would get take-away coffee and would ONLY drink it at their desks browsing Facebook. As a European it didn't take me long to find a Dutch guy who had the same feeling about joint coffee breaks and we became buddies.
Coffee/tea breaks are great, but they are in a different category. People drink at different rates, and you need to be somewhere to sit to drink, and usually indoors near a kitchen area.
Smoke breaks are fast, usually outdoors, and limited by the short burn time of a cigarette the moment someone lights up. It's (IMO) a different social function, which is something I didn't appreciate until I lived with a smoker.
Don't get me wrong- I'm not saying smoking is a good habit to have. Only that I have a new appreciation for what 'smoke breaks' are as their own unique sort of socialization. Having a drink together, it's just not the same.
This is not why people start though, see DowsingSpoon’s comment above as to how that happens, it nearly always involves alcohol. This is what people do once they are already addicted, and then use socialisation and relaxation as a post-hoc justification to rationalise or even deny their addiction.
It's about social rituals. If you can create one of those with the people around you without addictive substances, more power to you! But coffee and cigarettes: they come with prexisting societal level rituals out of the box, so to speak.
Alcohol has gourmet attributes and is a good social lubricant. The question is more around whether those two attributes warrant ingesting what is essentially poison.
I don't think I've ever heard a cigarette smoker comment on the taste of their cigarette (cigars are the exception here) and the high, especially for regular smokers, is near non-existent. So for cigarettes the initial appeal is much less obvious.
I'd assume most people start smoking due to social pressure/trying to fit in.
Alcohol is regarded as lowering inhibitions, which allows people to express themselves honestly and break down boundaries while returning to the normal social order the next day.
While alcohol does lower inhibitions, it is generally only acceptable after work or at the odd outing/party. A smoke break is acceptable during work and might be the only time different departments and levels from management to floor workers interact on a day to day basis.
Not responding as an argument, just to share my perspective (as I’m holding a lit cigarette in my hand).
I’ve definitely described the flavor of my cigarettes. I switched to my current brand because I liked the flavor more than my previous brand, which I described as having no flavor (and of course it did, just not flavor I found offputting), which was preferable to previous brands I’d smoked. I’m leaving out brand names here mostly because this is a way we reinforce our addiction and I don’t want to give anyone inspiration to try something else.
I have only once smoked to address social pressure. I was 12 at the time, I hated it, no one pressured further. When I started smoking of my own volition, I was 15. I did it privately out of curiosity because I was terribly bored. I didn’t like it, then I did it out of habit. It happened like that.
A lot of my smoking friends preferred one brand over an other and even refused to smoke some brands. But I wouldn't classify that as being 'gourmet' in the same way as alcohol is.
A similar example is mineral water:
I have preferences around which mineral water I drink. I even dislike waters very high in minerals and will only have them if there is no choice. But in the end water is just something I drink to satisfy a physical craving; it is not something I will consume as part of a gourmet experience (although some 'artisan waters' have tried to market themselves that way...).
You won't hear many smokers say things like: "OMG have you tried the new XYZ cigarettes? The subtle flavours of tar and nicotine are just to die for!" (and the same is true for water)
There's also no 'craft cigarettes' market, or cigarette tasting tours and whatnot.
My dad smoked through my entire childhood. I don't like the smell of stale cigarette smoke, but smoke drifting from a lit cigarette smells good to me, and reminds me of being around my dad as a kid.
Smoking is magnitudes more addictive than alcohol. Regardless, a lot of people do ask why anyone would drink alcohol, given that it offers up an enormous array of detrimental health effects, the possibility of addiction and social troubles (DUI, violence, etc), and as a mental "holiday" altered state is an incredibly poor mechanism.
Alcohol hangs around because it was accessible in earlier eras. There will come a time, I suspect in the very near future, when it will look ridiculous. Where having a `drink' will be an anachronism.
Virtually everyone who smokes for any reasonable duration will become addicted and almost all do so enough to substantially effect their health and longevity whether they know it or not. Most of the people who consume alcohol do so casually and not to excess.
Essentially the chance of dying in a given year due to alcohol if this were anything like a random chance is around 1 in 2000 whereas the chance of dying from smoking is around 1 in 77.
This is something like the difference in danger in riding a motorcycle 100 miles and base jumping.
Of course its not random at all whereas taking up smoking is extremely likely to result in becoming a life long smoker and suffering the average ill effects its perfectly possible for most people to enjoy a sane amount of alcohol infrequently.
Consumption of intoxicants of some variety seems to have been a feature of humanity for the entirety of human history. The expulsion of smoker from reasonable things to be in human society has only happened after we realized its predictable massive effect on human health. There just will never be the same impetus with alcohol.
>Virtually everyone who smokes for any reasonable duration will become addicted and almost all do so enough to substantially effect their health and longevity whether they know it or not.
This sounds right enough, but can you cite your sources for it?
> At least 61 per cent of people who try their first cigarette become, at least temporarily, daily smokers, suggests an analysis of survey data by Queen Mary University of London.
This is actually stronger than the original statement. A substantial minority who even try smoking become smokers.I think it ought to be considered a given that people who smoke are physiologically addicted to nicotine. Having many relatives who smoke currently or have in the past. Smoking in America has been so pervasive that most of us likely have direct knowledge of smoking by either smoking having family members who smoke.
To clarify imagine a funnel. In step one 61% who try smoking become daily smokers. In step two some percentage n of those who become daily smokers become addicted to smoking.
Virtually everyone who smokes for any reasonable duration will become addicted is a statement about step two and asserting that n is somewhere near 100% based on knowing a plethora of smokers, hearing about how smoking effected them, and watching their struggles to quit and reading about the physiological effects of smoking. It isn't a very scientific analysis and I'm open to more clear numbers if you have them.
61% seems strange to me. It's anecdotal but almost (more than 95%) all my friends in university tried at least once, and yet only roughly 15% became smokers.
Trying a cigarette once is something that is very very common, at least in France.
In 2014 34% of the french smoked I think it is down to around 27% but e-cigarette use is up so part of the decline might be down to that.
Going to the other end percentage who have tried smoking. This is harder to pin down because tobacco use by youth is illegal and its hard to ask kids to be honest about breaking the law even when its supposed to be anonymous. It looks like between 20%-30% self report trying tobacco in school here and in France although I wouldn't be terribly surprised if this was substantially wrong. Not as wrong as 95% is though.
I suspect you like most people don't really closely associate with enough people from your school days to be called a useful sample, you don't actually know how many of them tried nicotine products, and you don't know how many of them ultimately spent some of their life smoking. What you have tried to do is make a rough estimate of how many people you know and tried to bring to mind the ones you had seen smoking.
It's not shocking that a large portion of people that try a very addictive and at one time socially acceptable drug have gone on to become addicted.
Not OP, but this is one study I have came across, which postulates that cigarette addiction is quick to develop, and doesn't take years of smoking to develop.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18444329/
From the abstract:
New research has overturned the dogma that cigarette
addiction takes years to develop. Studies of adolescent
smokers show that symptoms of addiction, such as
withdrawal, craving for cigarettes and failed attempts at
quitting, can appear within the first weeks of smoking.
To account for these findings, scientists have developed
a new theory positing that the brain quickly develops
adaptations that counter the effects of nicotine. These
adaptations lead to withdrawal symptoms when the effects
of nicotine wear off. The results highlight the
importance of boosting government funding for antismoking
campaigns, particularly those aimed at youngsters.
The author of the paper (Joseph R.DiFranza, University of Massachusetts Medical School, Worcester, USA.) wrote in May-2008 issue of Scientific Americanhttps://www.scientificamerican.com/magazine/sa/2008/05-01/
outlining his research findings.
The article Hooked from the first cigarette in this issue isn't available online, but if you are subscriber of SciAm checkout this issue.
The question is... what is a sane amount of alcohol? It’s surprisingly carcinogenic. It’s just the alcohol industry, much like the tobacco industry of yesteryear, has successfully suppressed this info.
That's already been tried before, and it resulted in the US government deliberately poisoning people, widespread organised crime, and a lot of methanol poisoning.
Turns out it's really hard to ban something you can make in a 20 gallon drum from yeast and sugar.
The decline in smoking has absolutely been accompanied and/or caused by a massive array of state coercion, from requiring all their advertising to prominently state "THIS WILL KILL YOU" to limiting who's allowed to sell it to banning it in almost all public spaces. (Which isn't even mentioning the "softer" approaches of massive state-funded PR campaigns against it.)
It seems quite likely that absent all of these, smoking would still be as popular as it ever was.
Alcohol has enormous benefits over smoking and has pretty much been in hand for the entirety of civilization.
If people drink like a normal smoker smokes its considered a problem. If your having a couple morning drinks and taking shot breaks at work people would view that as extreme, yet that was/is a norm for smokers.
The thing is that its not so much explicitly smoking, but cigarettes that are the major problem. Cigarettes have so many additives and distort the natural tobacco to enhance the addiction that they themselves create the bulk of the smoking related issues. Using a natural tobacco product at the same frequency as normal / social drinking wouldn't have nearly the terrible health impacts as what happens to typical cigarette smokers and would likely be seen in a similar vein were it not for the negative attention brought on by cigarettes.
> Alcohol hangs around because it was accessible in earlier eras. There will come a time, I suspect in the very near future, when it will look ridiculous. Where having a `drink' will be an anachronism
Why do you think this? It seems an extremely puritan outlook, I'm a bit sceptical that puritanism is saleable without enforcement of society-wide religious norms. Smoking, sure, but smoking is not at all like alcohol consumption.
Given that I think cannabis, MDMA, pyslocybin and other drugs are far superior to alcohol, I don't think most people would categorize my beliefs as puritanical. If anything it's puritanical "old ways" beliefs that keeps alcohol as the primary drug despite an enormous array of extreme negatives.
I understand where you're coming from, but I feel like this ignores practicality and, coupled to that, social use. You can go on numbers related to health, or raw effectiveness, but those numbers don't measure practicality.
MD, mushrooms (and acid et al) are far too powerful (yes, you can take very small doses, but in general). To look at it coldly, they're just not at all practical, regardless of them having, I would say, far fewer direct negative health effects. Indirectly though, things that immediately change people's mental state to such a degree are I would say more dangerous than alcohol.
With alcohol, I can go and have a small amount with family or friends or colleagues, for a short period of time. I can do it home, with a meal. And the actual drinking of it is core. It's not like taking one the above drugs: I take the drug then I am mentally altered to a large degree, possibly for a long period of time. In the case of a selfish drug, like cocaine or an amphetamine, I can function, and the effects a shorter, but there's no social aspect. The actual sitting down with others to spend time imbibing is central.
Cannabis obviously has this in common, so I think that's a very fair comparison. And just to stay on topic, so does tobacco. It's not just the effect of the drug that's attractive, it's [what I think is fair to say is] the social ritual associated with it. It helps that taking those isn't quick (it's not just slipping a pill), that's a feature.
> Smoking is magnitudes more addictive than alcohol.
No it is not magnitudes more addictive. Alcohol is extremely addictive, 1 in 12 Adults in the US has an alcohol problem [1] and withdrawal can literally kill you, unlike nicotine.
1 in 12 adults had met the criteria for abuse or dependence at some point. 1 in 12 aren't present drinking themselves to death and it is highly likely that this figure that has gone up substantially has more to do with our screwed up society and less with the properties of alcohol.
Notably 90% of Americans have drank alcohol at some point without becoming addicts which one can't be said of nicotine.
I was looking at the wrong article there was a clickbaity article in Washington Post that 12% of Americans were alcoholics which is based on a based on
National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions-III (NESARC-III) which is about your entire life and I got my wires crossed.
1 in 12 being 6% seems fairly accurate and supportable
Your other points aside (I agree, they should probably at least include some citations to their statistics), this article is from 2015, so I don't think anyone is making it about 2020/covid other than you.
I understood and was pointing that out (given that GP appeared to be insinuating things about 2020, but to be clear the list of one-sided talking points you posted puts no effort into citing sources for its "facts", so the technicalities of the 12% number (what qualifies as abuse, for how long, etc) are left for the reader to interpret.
I got 12% and 1 in 12 and the
National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions-III survey which IS your entire life mixed up in my head and was arguing that point not about 2020 specifically.
Your stats in absolutely no way counters my claim about addiction.
Almost everyone who smokes to any degree becomes addicted and a regular user. Tens (100 million+) of millions of Americans drink occasionally with no addiction.
Alcohol is a dangerous drug in every dimension, and I specifically said that. But their addiction profiles are dramatically different.
This is an absolutely ridiculous claim given the number of people I know who've had a first cigarette and not touched a second. Business Insider claims 76% of the population have smoked and 24% have become addicted, while 92% have consumed alcohol and 14% have become addicted[0]. That's nowhere near "almost everyone", it's 31%, and 15% for alcohol.
Addiction rates are lower than people think; heroin, even, is lower than you'd assume (the rate I remember seeing was about 25%, in-line with nicotine).
Of course, 1/4 is still a HUGE amount of people, and an absolute health crisis.
I think there's an important difference to make, I know a lot of people who have smoked once or a few times and have not become addicted but I don't know anyone who smoked regularly and didn't become addicted.
On the other hand for alcohol, I know a lot of people who will have a glass of wine whenever they go to a nice restaurant yet are not addicted.
So there's a magnitude of difference. Nicotine is significantly more addictive for anyone who uses it semi regularly whereas alcohol is not as addictive in that case.
"given the number of people I know who've had a first cigarette and not touched a second"
Okay, now exclude people who did that as children, an experience after which they had zero access to cigarettes. That same survey if demanding an adult experience would be much, much closer.
Everyone has a "Jimmy lit up a smoke and I took a drag and coughed my guts out when I was 9" story.
Overwhelmingly people either had a problem smoking (one that they had to quit through extreme effort), or they never smoked cigarettes at all as adults.
The one "exception" I can recall is a "social" smoker who would tell everyone that she controlled it by only smoking when she drank/at social events, a consequence of which was that she sought drinking opportunities at every venue. She was a problem smoker that turned it into also being a problem drinker.
I've smoked tobacco on somewhere between 5 and 15 occasions over a decade since becoming an adult, but I didn't become a daily smoker or addicted to smoking. Am I just an extreme outlier?
I'm some kind of introvert, if i hang out with people, my social "battery" drains and i get tired. I smoke because it gives me much more time before my social "battery" is empty. I don't smoke otherwise.
A person would usually smoke more than one cigarette at an outing, so its more acute than chronic, I'd assume. Not sure what impact that would have in terms of health differences, but in terms of addiction potential it definitely would.
> Your stats in absolutely no way counters my claim about addiction.
There is no standardized addiction metric. The product, the dosage, age of user, and social habits matter significantly. Alcohol is extremely addictive and habit forming it kills 95,000 people a year in the US. I think it is disingenuous to dismiss it is as orders of magnitude less addictive than nicotine.
Most people can smoke a Cigar without becoming addicted to nicotine and a regular user. In the same way most people who are exposed to alcohol in the US don't get addicted.
I used to smoke occasionally. Only when I was drinking, as a matter of fact. I never became a regular smoker. I also don't smoke at all anymore, even when drinking.
To get physiologically addicted to alcohol, one has to drink heavily every day for a year or so. Few people, especially people with college education, do that. One can drink a glass of wine or a cocktail every weekend for life, and form no addiction at all. Such a person can go dry for weeks or months, without any adverse effects.
Nicotine forms a physiological addiction much faster, and then the addict has to have a fix daily, several times. So the exposure to nicotine (which is mildly toxic in the quantities needed) and smoke (which is way more dangerous, and hits the lungs directly) is much more intense and sustained.
One of my friends gave up smoking for exactly a year on a whim, celebrated his success with a cigar, I think largely to rub it in the faces of people who struggled to quit - after a few months smoking again he packed it in permanently. So it doesn't have a strong hold on everybody. A few of my friends reduced their smoking to just a cigar once in a while, others moved to vaping, it is disheartening that then going from vaping to nothing seems to be not really a thing, but at least the vaping doesn't smell atrocious and seems less immediately likely to kill them.
I'd say many people can drink more than that without dependency. I have a whiskey most evenings, but if I run out, I don't have any problems. Sometimes I'll go days or weeks without a drink, just depending on what else is going on.
It is quite simple: someone is offered a cigarette, and they accept. And they have some more, and it is pleasant and social and/or stress relieving (both in ritual and physically: warm smoke in the mouth and throat is pleasant, as is the slight buzz, as is the act). This will often happen at a young age (teens, early twenties), within social settings. And then the addiction and ritual are the thing, and that thing is extremely satisfying. If you do not and have never smoked, then this will seem stupid, and it is, that would be a completely fair assessment: it is unlikely that any smoker will recommend that you become a smoker. Note that many people who give up smoking will replace it with an equally pointless (albeit generally much, much healthier) addiction/crutch that gives a mild buzz and requires some ritual habits (running, for example).
First, it's the social aspect. You smoke because it is/was cool.
Second, it's the anti-stress effect. When you take a hit, you concentrate on your breath. It's like a mini mindfulness moment. Under stressful situations at work I used to do it by myself (even walked out of the office to not be seen). Then I did not care and started smoking outside with the rest of coworkers. This combined the anti-stress with the social effects.
In the meantime, addiction kicks in. You don't get any pleasure any more, but you cannot leave it.
I am currently on an average of 6 cigarettes/day, but it's only because I do not smoke at home or weekends. Only on workdays, so really around 9-10 cigarettes/workday.
Depression in my case. I started smoking before high school as something to fill the void, only realizing much later that I've been severely depressed for a long time. (SSRIs are an amazing tool in my case FWIW)
Once you get used to it, it's an amazing social tool -- making new friends/acquaintances becomes a piece of cake. I travelled a lot for work and, as a smoker, I would instantly integrate with the other smokers. It's just something fun that leads to pursuing other social activities together. I've seen ADHD mentioned in this thread and that makes sense, the habit as "something to do" is a powerful grip on top of the chemical addiction.
For me it was something I did with co-workers, and eventually at home, to de-stress. I was in a terrible place mentally, physically, and from a career perspective at the time, but it helped me feel like I wasn't going to suffocate from stress. I got my life together after that, but it so bad at the time that taking half an hour to smoke a cigar in the evening was a godsend.
My dad started smoking cigarettes and drinking alcohol in his teens. From what I’ve gathered, he had a rough childhood. If you’re not sure you’re going to live very long, putting harmful things in your body for the immediate high isn’t the worst. It might feel worse to deny yourself the pleasure of (temporary, and in his case ultimate) escape.
It’s also cool, something to waste your time on, a way to socialize, an (apparent) way to control your mood.
It’s not worth it and the advantages are mostly fake, insignificant or easily replaceable but you only see that if you quit smoking. Just like you have to quit smoking to notice how bad it smells.
I don't think this is expounded enough: smoking does make you look cool. Hollywood inculcated society with this back in the 50s with the James Dean types. You go down to drags with bars and you see all the people outside doing it. There's something alluring about someone not caring that they're shaving off a fraction of a fraction of of their lifespan. To me socially I've found myself drawn to those who smoke vs. those that don't. They're right below the surface to where I can quickly find something in common with them. At one of my previous places, the CTO told me how he took a bunch of the employees from another job to start their own successful company. How did that happen? They got the idea because they were all smokers and all congregated at the same.
This is my experience as well, and I can still occasionally have a cigar or hookah on special occasions a couple times a year without any problems. Then again I only smoked about 1/3rd of a pack a day for about 3 years, so maybe the addiction levels also depend on the quantity and the length of time
After getting fully non-addicted (~3 years) I was able to do this. But after having cigars a bit more frequently (once every ~6 weeks, ~7 times total) I found the cravings started to come back. It surprised me a little, so I've stayed away. Back to actual special occasions if that. For comparison I smoked ~5-10 a day for ~15 years, with a few quitting segments in between.
I don't agree with you that the addiction, need and nicotine + other triggers will remain with me until the end of time.
Deprogramming is part of the process of quitting to smoke. I do now never want to smoke.
First I want to say I don't want you to start smoking again, nor go through something painful. I will admit I have a habit of being negative about things-- so I can't help but to wonder, because you sound so confident.
Would you say that in the time you quit smoking you experienced a time where "The chips were down" so to say? I'm not talking about something small. Im talking things got real real. Cause that's usually when the switch appears.
To those that have tried this, I found something a bit different, and I'm not even sure if I should say anything.
Again--to those that tried to stop completely, and failed, maybe cut way back?
I have never been successful at quitting anything.
Diets have failed. Drinking abstinance has failed.
What worked though is drastically cutting back.
Ok, I was never a two pack a day smoker. I couldn't even imagine it.
I did smoke though.
That said, I cut way back.
Cut back to a few cigarettes a week.
I use rolling papers, and only buy one pack of cigarettes every few weeks. (probally 6 week interval, but I don't like to think about it). I roll tiny bits of tobacco into a paper, and smoke it, when I get that urge. Only when I get the urge.
I can't recommend it because the research on smoking a little bit of tobacco is fuzzy.
What I feel is wrong with most methods of stopping any substance, including food, and booze, is telling the brain you will never have this again.
As my grandfather told me so many times, moderation my son.
(I am not very successful in any part of my life, but smoke no more than three packs a year.)
A big part of my process for quitting was associating smoking with feeling disgusting and sick instead of feeling relaxed (which was never true anyway). For me it was more like reprogramming than deprogramming. But in broad strokes my experience was similar to yours.
Same here. I started in my teens and eventually quit in my thirties. It was so difficult I'm still surprised I was actually able to finally quit. Each time I walked into the office in the morning and at lunch I had to walk through the gauntlet of smokers and the mantra I repeated to myself to resist was, "That is what death smells like" It didn't take that long (months) before I found that familiar sweet smell very distasteful.
I hope it's true for you long term. But please watch out. My aunt said pretty much the same thing. She was back to chain smoking after 3 years of completely no cigarettes. It may be safe to doubt yourself just a tiny bit...
Have you had any major stress events in your life since quitting?
I quit something myself and have felt much the same way, but I eventually had a string of very stressful events in my life that resulted in me seeking comfort in my old addiction.
I quit for nine years. After a stressful event four years ago I started again. I think that, for me, the habit of going outside once an hour is the part that's hard to change.
oddly enough i only quit after a major stress event in my life, but that was such an experience where i managed to quit multiple things at once because i almost died haha good times
IMO its not just about time, its also about repeating common activities with or without smoking a couple of times
Some things happen once a year, so it takes quite a bit to get around to repeating them, feeling the urge, recognizing that you're learning how to do the activity without smoking, resisting for a bit and treating it as an important new learning experience, and then proceeding to the next one.
After learning how well it worked for me for coffee (something I thought I could never ever do without smoking), I was confident it will work for everything else that causes a trigger.
Well, except for alcohol, since it removes inhibition barriers. I was very careful with alcohol for the first year.
As always with anything, it seems like there is a wide range of reactions to quitting. I know of people who quit and never went back to smoking, and I also know people who find it incredibly hard to stay off of it forever and go back to smoking sooner or later. For some people's brains, it does seem impossible to quit forever for some reason regardless of how much they want to quit etc
This was my experience quitting drinking. Once I realized what it meant for my stability, both mental and financial, the upsides stopped outweighing the downsides and I lost all interest.
I certainly did. I still remember the feeling of "oh no, I've fucked it all up" in the dream, and then the feeling of relief when you wake up and realize that you didn't actually smoke.
Anecdata but that’s not how it worked for me. I was “20 a day” (which means 30 a day but that wasn’t socially acceptable to admit) for 4 years, 3.5 of which were spent trying to give up. The only 3 days i didn’t smoke in that time were when i had a horribly bad septic throat due to some infection and physically couldn’t smoke.
Patches, lozenges, gums, the little ball tablet things, herbal cigs, e-cig - not the current vape kind, the early 2000s fake cig kind, will power exercises, social support group, pay into my piggy bank to smoke each cig … you get the idea but nothing worked for me and i tried everything on the market.
The problem wasn’t just that i enjoyed smoking, i was actually born to be a smoker. I say that because other people, even most smokers, hate passive cig smoke to varying degrees but i always loved it from a young age, like really loved being near someone smoking, the smell of a cig being smoked just smelled great. Stale smoke didn’t, i hated that like everyone else.
And then i gave up, in one day, and my feeling has never changed since. You couldn’t pay me to smoke, it’d be like paying someone to drink petrol, there’s just no one would do that, it’s an absurd idea.
I don’t mind being near smokers, i don’t enjoy the smell anymore but I’m not repulsed either. I never consider them, it’s just not a part of my identity. I’m not a smoker.
The difference is subtle, is that i don’t have to smoke anymore. When i was a smoker i had to smoke but today I don’t.
Allen Carr’s Easyway book. I don’t mind admitting i actually cried reading it. 3.5 years of misery solved painlessly with zero effort. I couldn’t believe how easy it was to quit, after all the crap i had been through.
Same here. I was a heavy smoker who struggled terribly to quit.
But once I quit, well, your “pay me to drink petrol” analogy is accurate. Its been this way for about 10 years now. I just don’t smoke, it’s now repulsive to me, and there’s almost no conceivable way for me to go back to it other than putting myself through the punishment of the early smoker again where it’s just disgusting and doesn’t feel good at all for several weeks.
Same here. I thought I had a good grasp on how I think and why I do what I do and this was a real eye opener. It was freaky that after 300 or so pages I suddenly didn't have to smoke whereas before I tried literally thousand+ times.
Exactly the same for me. I had the book for years and occasionally read a bit in it. At one point I finished it, tried to quit, failed, re-read it in one go and quit again. First day I failed and smoked a cigarette in the afternoon. The day after I quit again and it stuck. It's like a switch flipped in my head. I knew I'd never smoke again.
I tell people that quitting is simultaniously the easiest and the hardest thing I have ever done. I haven't had any urge to start smoking again. I've been drunk since, had very stressful times, etc. But I've never felt in danger of slipping back into the habit. 5 years now :-)
Smoking is one of the few things that changes your status by simply doing it: from being a John Doe you become a smoker.
«The smoker simultaneously injects and excuses idleness in his life with every cigarette»
«Many idlers love to smoke. It gives us something to do when we’re not doing anything.»
As a smoker who quit several times over the past 20 years and went from few cigarettes a week to 20 a day, back to 1 or 2 and then 20 again after the lockdown, I think the real threat is not the physical need, that is really easy to overcome, a few days and it's gone.
It's the idea of losing your status and missing the habit of being that kind of person that is really, really hard to win.
But it really sucks, we all know it, it's probably the most stupid thing a person can do, but we still fall for it.
I quit years before the pandemic, but if I was still smoking when lockdown started I would've probably gone from being a pack-a-day smoker to a two-pack-a-day smoker.
First, all that pandemic anxiety would've made me smoke way more just as a matter of course. Second, being at home all day means I'd have no reason not to smoke. Back when I smoked, if I wanted to smoke at work, I'd have to stop what I'm doing and go outside (which royally sucked when it was either swelteringly-hot out or raining), but in lockdown? I could just smoke in my house all day while working.
I am absolutely not like this. I smoked a few times in high school >10 years ago, because I'm from a country basically everyone smokes. I didn't have the need or want to have another cigarette after high school because it wasn't as socially acceptable in communities I lived in. So I lost the interest. I never found it hard, nor ever found myself appealed to cigarettes after high school.
I started smoking at the age of 23, so I am probably much more stupid than the average smoker who started or tried it first time in high school.
I immediately lost interest, it's a terrible habit, I never smoked in the morning, rarely during the day, only at night when I'm out with other people, but I keep going back because... I don't even know why.
One thing is sure, if I have something meaningful to do I don't even think about cigarettes.
So in my case boredom is probably the main drive.
Other people might have other reasons to do it.
But it's absolutely something that every smoker should fight as hard as they can, because nothing good can come out of it.
One thing that really helped me to reduce my addiction to just 1 or 2 cigarettes a day has been avoiding "the bad ones".
Those cigarettes that you smoke knowing you won't even enjoy them.
I smoked one after dinner and one after a drink and that was enough.
If you start associating the habit of lighting up one after everyday activities - a coffee, waiting for someone or something, watching a movie, drinking a beer - that's when you are screwed and should understand you're smoking too much.
Easier said than done, I know, but it worked on me until I let it win again.
I quit a few years ago and never looked back, even made a pet app for quitting smoking as I was learning iOS development. Check it out, recently switched from UIKit to SwiftUI: https://apps.apple.com/app/id1459979131
When I was quitting smoking I found 2 things useful:
1) Alan Carr's book, which in essence is designed to convince you that you actually don't enjoy smoking. I completely agree, when I first started it gave me the sensation, then I had to smoke every half an hour just to stay functional.
2) The cigarette prices. There was no way I can sustain smoking when first move to London. A pack of cigarettes was the same as my food budged.
So, I just quit as a chain smoker. It was bad for a week but I kept observing myself and surely Alan Carr was right. I wasn't getting any boost from the nicotine, I was simply getting rid of the cravings for a brief period of time. In a month all the cravings disappears, in less than a year I had no desire to smoke even among people who are smoking. These days the cigarette smoke is simply something I try to avoid when exposed.
This was not my first time to quit but on the previous occasions I had the wrong mental model. I was thinking of it as stopping doing something that I enjoy, like quitting chocolates. In less than a day it would have turned into torture.
Just observe yourself to see if smoking actually gives you any pleasure or does smoking simply make you functional again. Then remember that non-smokers are functional without the cigarettes and their clothes and hands don't smell horrible.
Notice that there's no boost once you get addicted, it's more like removing tight shoes when your smoke break comes. Would you wear tight shoes only to experience the pleasure of removing them?
Everything gets so much better once you quit. You remember that the streets have a scent, the weather has scent. Just take note on yourself and there's no way going back to smoking, it's just a tremendously bad deal.
Agreed. The article mentions becoming a new person - for me, it's different, I'm still a smoker, I just don't smoke anymore. I quit 10 years ago, and I won't start again, but I still want to smoke every day.
I rarely see this discussed when people talk about addiction. You can't un-ring the bell so to speak, and once you know you can do something you enjoy, you don't just forget about it. The cliche of the addict tied to the bed for a few weeks and then back to normal is not my experience at all. Acute withdrawal is easy compared to the hole that is left in your life. And I'm just talking about cigarettes, happily i never got involved with anything even more addictive.
I think there is a vast difference how individuals deal with addictions. Some are better at it, and some are pretty hopeless. I have been smoking nicotine on-and-off since more then 20 years. But I still have no craving when I stop. Last time I realized how strong the difference is was when I did a overseas flight. After 12 hours flight, first touchdown on some island for refuel. A friend of mine was desperately trying to find a place to smoke. She basically used all the 60 minutes she had seeking an opportuinty to smoke at least one cigarette. I was watching her the whole time, pretty amused, realizing that I have no craving at all. That doesnt mean I didnt smoke a cigarette a few hours later when we finally arrived and left the airport. But watching the difference from person to person was pretty interesting.
I’m not an expert, but from what I’ve read, tobacco (especially cigarettes) are up there with the most addictive substances. Like, competing with cocaine and heroin. Obviously since the mind-altering effects are much more subtle, and it’s legal, it’s less disruptive (at least until it gets you sick).
I compared one specific aspect, which is addictiveness. Other aspects might be (and obviously are, in this case) more different, but that's comparisons work - the specifics about what you're comparing doesn't become invalid just because other things about them don't match the same way.
I still stand by this particular statement. Given how you phrased what you said, I don't know if you think cigarettes are way less addictive than the others, or if you got hung up on me comparing them at all, or if you actually don't have any beef with the claim per se but just wanted to say that for some reason. For what it's worth you have no idea about my lived experiences.
I agree, I quit smoking more than 5-6 years ago. I still get strong cravings every once in a while, especially during bad weather. It is probably because I live in Texas now and I don't get enough opportunities to to deprogram smoking associations that I developed living upstate New York. Recent winter freeze made me just want to smoke every second.
I am still looking for something that can replace smoking, nothing really works. I have tried walking around the office, stretching, meditation, chewing gum, running up the stairs, eating snacks, drinking more coffee or tea, going outside for a short walks, etc. Smoking is really one activity where you can just take 5 minutes break from work every hour, stop thinking about work mentally, or keep thinking about the problem, totally normal to join a group of strangers smoking, or smoke by yourself, go outside to get away from crowd and smoke, smoke to get fresh air. Many times I was able to turn off my mind while smoking and when went back to work, I solved whatever I was stuck at.
This is one activity where I can totally turn off my mind and just be. I used to sit in my patio and watch storms, it was such a peaceful feeling. I don't know what activity can replace smoking. Any suggestion?
I feel much the same as you, smoking to me was always an easily excusable pretext to be alone or speak to complete strangers as required.
I also felt it helped to bridge the strata in the workplace, as a junior I'd often end up sharing a cigarette with an exec or manager of some kind and hear about goings on in a different part of the company or from a higher level which would help to piece together the puzzle of how the business was being run.
It's been many years since I've smoked habitually, a few months since doing so socially, I don't feel the urge, but I do miss the idle moments it allowed for.
There really is nothing quite like it. The closest thing I've found is tending to weeds in my back garden.
I sort of agree with this, but I do know lots of people – myself to a certain extent – that have had success with mild re-programming, via Allen Carr's Easy Way method[0]. I'm not the type to buy in to this kind of thing, but it did help me quit when nothing else did, and I never felt this sense of longing for something. Nobody else I've known that has had success with that method did either.
I also think it's really unhelpful to talk about quitting smoking in such hopeless terms. If I was still a smoker, being told I was inevitably going to be craving cigarettes for the rest of my life might almost convince me not to quit at all.
I should mention (because I posted a hopeless sounding post below and didn't consider how it could come across), I quit smoking by taking up running. It was not a switch, I started running as exercise while a still smoked, without even considering quitting. Obviously the habits are at odds, but less than you'd think (I was in my early 30s, smoked about 15 years).
At some point, I had an established new hobby i enjoyed (running), i knew that smoking was holding me back, and i had a partial coping mechanism for dealing with craving and depression that comes with stopping.
10 years later, I still run, and I'm still happy with the tradeoff on my level of fitness, which is something that helps remind me of why I stopped when I have a craving.
(I know a lot of people don't like running, but my takeaway I think is that it's better to focus on a new hobby / habit and establish new patterns while still smoking and then try and quit, vs just stopping and then trying to fill the void after). I hope this makes it sound less hopeless.
> I also think it's really unhelpful to talk about quitting smoking in such hopeless terms. If I was still a smoker, being told I was inevitably going to be craving cigarettes for the rest of my life might almost convince me not to quit at all.
I think the post was directed at non-smokers, to scare them into not starting to smoke.
Sorry, it wasn't intended as a stylistic comment. It just seemed you're making a recommendation about a treatment by saying that it works for all the people it works for. Would you have any estimate of what fraction of all the people who tried this fully succeed?
My sample size here is extremely small – I know of three people who have used the method (2 read the book, 1 took the seminar) and all three were successes. I don't know of anyone who's done it that hasn't succeeded, but I expect there are tons of those. People who believe in it because it's worked for them are much more likely to speak broadly and loudly about it.
I was a half-pack-a-day smoker for about 10 years, quit several times (once for several months), and the only thing that "worked" ultimately was realizing that I simply could never have another cigarette. After the physical cravings subsided, I still had frequent longings for that wonderfully ubiquitous way to 'fix' my internal itchiness/discomfort, but I had made such a commitment that I would have literal nightmares in which I smoked a cigarette--and then woke up in a panic, similar to dreams where I found out I'd accidentally killed someone and was debating whether to turn myself in or go on the lam.
Then one evening about 10 years later I was at a festival wandering around and I had this desire in my brain for something, I didn't know what, and it was a few hours later that I realized the thing I really wanted was a cigarette. It was that night that I changed my internal conception of myself from "ex-smoker" to "non-smoker". I don't have cravings any more for cigarettes, though there is a certain pang, I guess I would call it "nostalgia", and maybe it includes "envy" of people who can smoke a cigarette/cigar socially at an event and then not think about it again for years. Occasionally I will have accidental contact with nicotine (like buying a joint on vacation and getting a weird taste while smoking it and realizing half-way through that it's actually a spliff), and for a few days or a week afterward the light switch is again visible in my mind--though I'm thankfully not tempted to flip it. I wonder in those times whether a never-smoker who has a cigar once does have the same cravings in the days after, but doesn't recognize them as such.
So at least for me, who admittedly was never a heavy smoker, it doesn't resonate that I will struggle with this addiction until I die. The only apparent lasting (mental) consequences are that I have to consciously refuse nicotine even when it would be a legitimately fun and interesting experience (like when I was offered some fancy snuff at a party which everyone else got to enjoy). And when I see someone smoking a cigarette I might get the nostalgia or envy I mentioned above. But when I get within smelling distance it's just foul and unappealing.
Best wishes for anyone who's thinking of or trying to quit.
I think your analogy works well mechanistically, but it doesn't go deep enough with that "Switch". If nicotine is a switch then that switch does something. That switch puts you in a more positive mood, eliminates negative self-talk, increases cognitive function. There is a reason people flip that switch.
The reason people smoke isn't simply that they're a bunch of junkies, it's that nicotine is perceived as a solution for their problems. For many people, it is too much hassle to identify the true causes of their need for nicotine, whether it's that they don't feel fluid enough or they feel overwhelmed emotionally. There are ways to fix those core problems in one's life, but to many, using nicotine might seem simpler or quicker.
People seem to think smokers enjoy torching up their nicotine sticks and fouling up the air for everyone else. In reality they are just self medicating. It is worse for them in the long run, but classically it is difficult for an unrealized long term reward to outcompete a short term gain whose effects are immediately apparent.
Oof. I’m in the same boat as your younger self, but two years in. I simply slept bad one night, thinking to myself that I love life way too much to actively work on a sooner death than necessary. Next day I quit, never looking back. I can drink without even thinking about it.
I just hope disaster won’t strike me, or hit me as heavy, as it did you.
I once had a very bad night and chain smoked 3-4 cigarettes. Since then I've never experienced the "light switch" you describe. The experience of smoking was not unpleasant, but not something I crave either. My sister seems to be the same way and smokes a few cigarettes once every few years when things are particularly stressful but never habitually.
I wonder if there are physiological differences that account for this difference of experience.
There does seem to be some kind of difference in people, which isn’t surprising. Things like alcoholism also seem to have a genetic component.
Anecdotally, my wife and I both quit smoking. Many years later she still has the desire every day whereas I go months without thinking about it (and if cigarettes weren’t common in society I’d probably never think about them again, let alone have a desire to smoke one)
Well, it's probably like this for some, and totally different for others. I smoked for ten+ years, a pack a day, and quit cold turkey in three days, and don't miss it any tiny little bit. Light switch was ripped off the wall, and the place it had been hanging (nice easily reachable convenient place) has been levelled off, painted clean , and is now perfectly empty
I smoked for ten years. Took Chantix for a week about fifteen years ago, which increased the frequency and intensity of my suicidal ideations. I then quit for good, with help from the Carr book, about a year thereafter.
Quitting was horrible, but it got better. Now, the thought of smoking a cigarette is repulsive. Zero cravings, and the smell is highly offensive now.
I'm very thankful for Varenecline (aka Chantix/Champix); it's what got me to quit after many years of pack-a-day. I didn't even set a quit date when I started. That drug took away every tiny ounce of satisfaction I ever got from smoking. Every cigarette became a cigarette that did not give me what a cigarette is expected to provide. The best way I can describe what happened to me is that I felt like a non-smoker trying to smoke, and all I got was the scent and flavour of licking an ashtray with none of the brain-altering effects.
It's been over a year now, and I can't imagine going back. The only trigger I have is seeing someone else smoke, and even then it has never been more than a fleeting thought that dissipates within seconds. I know exactly what 2-3 puffs would do to me, and I have no interest in going back. I've never had the urge to buy a pack myself or to bum off someone. Smoking is now well into my past, and for that I am thankful.
I got the well-known "nightmares" from Verenecline, but I actually really enjoyed them. Those dreams were some of the most vivid and intense I've ever had the joy to experience. In fact, I still have the last 50 1mg pills leftover that I didn't need to use, and I've only kept them because I know I'll eventually use them just to revisit that kind of dream state. :)
For those in Europe, a similar medication is sold under the Tabex brand name. The active ingredient seems to be different (cytisine) but the effect is the same: no satisfaction from cigarettes, just the bad smell/taste plus some mild stimulation (at least I felt less sleepy in the first few days quitting with Tabex as opposed to cold turkey). I liked to visualize the effect of this drug as: binding to the same receptors in my brain as nicotine, robbing the dangerous molecule of it's power.
It still takes a tremendous amount of willpower to stay off the various forms of nicotine after the initial quitting. The pretense of having that first nicotine hit, seeking a consolation from life events, an excuse to make yourself feel better and all the other lies you'd be telling yourself are still very tempting (and exactly the reason I have been using the same pack of medication to __quit__ several times already.
Telling yourself there is no light switch in you, that you are stronger or better equipped than others, is a dangerous way to eventual relapse. Though for your own sake I really hope I am wrong.
Good sir, I regret to inform you that your assessment of my situation contains incorrect assertions based upon false premises, as I've made no such statement about my relative strength or equipment. I further regret to inform you that I've since been in the presence of smokers and cigarettes, through which no cravings arose.
Sir, I further regret to inform you that I've accidentally inhaled tobacco in recent years when being passed a (REDACTED BASED ON FEDERAL CANNABIS LAWS) that, unknown to me, had tobacco mixed in. I coughed, was disgusted, and had zero cravings for tobacco thereafter.
As such, there is no risk of relapse.
I do believe that my short stint consuming Chantix may have permanently rewired my brain's reaction to cigarettes.
After smoking for years I became a weekend smoker; in weekends I'd go out and after some beers the urge to smoke because so much stronger. It took me a few years to give up smoking in weekends, what helped me the most is all my friends trying to give up smoking so no cigarettes were around anymore when we'd go to a bar.
Eventually most of my friends started smoking again, but I stayed off of them. Now I've not smoked for at least 7 years; and I never feel like there is a lightswitch in my mind. Even after some beers the smell of cigarettes disgust me.
Me as well. I smoked a bit for a decade and change, but I very rarely even finished a pack of cigarettes. There were circumstances during which I smoked, but I never enjoyed smoking much, and certainly never for its own sake.
Which is a shame, because this means I probably shaved years off my life span without the pleasure that drives many to do so.
> The thing about smoking is that when you quit smoking you quit it every day. [...] So do yourself a favor and avoid any substance that creates such light switches in your mind
Unfortunately there are switches that one cannot just avoid - like food.
I was watching a West Wing episode last week, where a character says "An alcoholic cannot have 'just a drink'." It's the same for a food addict, except s/he must have 'just a portion'. I have a decent record with shaking off addictions, but with food I just can't go cold-turkey and it kills me.
I have always considered that a very important difference, too.
But I also know people do overcome food addiction, so it makes me wonder, isn't it possible to "quit" smoking in the sense that you set some limits for yourself that you're honestly happy with, and then you aim for staying within the limit, like you would do with food and/or body weight. Does the limit have to be "none"?
It was physically hard for a couple months while my brain reprogrammed to run without nicotine (i.e. I was pretty slow/stupid for a while) and once in a while I get an urge (maybe every couple months?), but it's not severe enough that I'm in any danger of ever smoking again. Quit over 10 yrs ago. Others mentioned Allen Carr/Easy Way method, and that was definitely a part of putting smoking in context as just a physical addiction.
As long as you're able to separate yourself from the narrative of "I'm a smoker" and just let go the big dramatic story about how it's hard and you're going to fail then it's relatively easy to just deal with the physical symptoms of withdrawal/craving. I have a strict "no nicotine" policy and it makes it super easy because I never have to wrestle with decisions about whether I'm going to smoke/vape/whatever, the decision is already made.
It really depends, my old man smoked for like 20~ years and now he doesn't even remembers that he used to smoke like 1 box a day, only when someone else points it out
I've tried nicotine (in cigarettes, cigars, and vape-based products), but for some reason, it never became this light switch in my head. However, as soon as you started describing this, I immediately thought of my relationship with food, which is not a healthy one.
I maintain a healthy weight (now) and exercise, but this is a daily struggle. Since about the age of 12, certain peculiar foods inexplicably got wired in my head with pleasure, and the way you talk about this light switch is spot on.
I wonder if it has more to do with having an "addiction gene" of some sort – could some of us fall prey to addictive behaviors more than others? If so, why?
My experience has been similar. I've smoked cigarettes probably ~12 times in my life, maybe up to 20 if you count cigars, but I've never felt like I need one or am in any way compelled to continue smoking on my own.
Always, always while drinking. Maybe that helps isolate the context?
12 times is too little I would say.
It's addictive, but its not heroin either.
In the beginning it was something to do with friends at parties, then it became something to do while hanging out, and last came the addiction- ' I must have it'. All in all maybe a year from beginner to smoker.
I Started when I was 14, quit at 24. Used snus/chewing tobacco for 3 years after that, then I quit. Used to have nightmares of relapsing.
The fascinating thing is that the physical addiction is over very quickly(days) its the psychological addiction that breaks people(and me more times than I care to remember).
Of course this is purely anecdotal, but I also smoke rarely when drinking, and only then. Some nights up to half a pack, sometimes just one or two, but only two to three times a year by now. Interestingly, I have no desire to smoke whatsoever when not drinking, not even a hint.
Something in my brain seems to be wired such that I'm repelled by the taste when it's not in the "right" setting. Even if I wanted, when I only had a beer or two I get so sick from it that I have to stop almost immediately.
It might be that I'm just super lucky, but I feel like there is more to it than that.
Sorry, I downvoted you, I hate when people think they're immune. They're one of the reason other people find themselves addicted to it. It's irresponsible and frankly immature.
Smoking one or 100 cigarettes doesn't guarantee addiction, it's a Russian roulette. If you haven't heard BANG yet, doesn't mean there's no ammo in the chamber.
You're not better or smarter than smokers. You just were more lucky.
I guess my only thought here is: how can someone like me talk about my experience if I'm going to get shouted down by someone like you? I was trying to share an anecdote to explain a potentially interesting alternative view, but I feel now that if I don't toe the orthodoxy line, I'm not allowed to participate.
I don't think I'm immune, but I am certain I'm not addicted to nicotine despite having smoked dozens of times, and I think that's a story worth sharing, even if you don't.
Sorry I don't have a better analogy, but it's like coming home from a tour in the military, and telling everybody "hey guys, war is perfectly safe, look at me I'm still alive!" — I'm really happy for you, but others are going to listen to your "story", follow your example, and have drastically worse results.
I think it's more interesting learning from those that went through hell, not the reckless lucky ones that managed to stay unscathed and think they're hot shit. Luck ain't a skill nor wisdom.
I know these are strong words for the matter at hand, but there must be an ex smoker or three that know exactly what I'm talking about.
I’ve smoked maybe... 30 cigarettes a year for half of my life. I will go weeks or months without with zero effort or intent. Sometimes I will get a strong feeling that I want a cigarette and I think “better not” and that’s it.
There is a little bit of “smarter” in there but really, i’m just not an addict. Some people are, some aren’t. I know several people who have rarely smoked and never had problems with addiction.
I think part of it is some people are more susceptible to addiction than others and another part is that the “just one” is BS, you can learn to not let it happen to you without total abstinence.
On the flip side - I've smoked probably more than 12 times but definitely less than 50. Also only while drinking. I definitely have cravings every once in a while (though generally mood dependent) even when I'm not drinking. I haven't been properly out drinking in a year or more (COVID) but it definitely seems like the switch has been flipped for me.
I smoked for 10 years and quitting was difficult (but not THAT difficult - don't even get me started on the "it's harder than quitting heroin" nonsense). But now, 9 years since quitting, I don't even think about it anymore. It doesn't follow me around, I don't constantly fight the urge to smoke. I'm not "always" an addict. It's gone. It's in my past.
No, but if that was all there was to heroin I don't think we'd be seeing people destroying their families and literally throwing their lives away for it. Quitting smoking was a few weeks of feeling a bit shitty followed by a few months of constant cravings followed by almost forgetting you ever smoked.
Ah, I see. I was thinking more about the neurological side, which seems to suggest that similar mechanisms apply in addiction and withdrawal between nicotine, heroin and cocaine. (see for example [1])
As far as sociological consequences go, there's of course no comparison for various reasons. I don't know the role withdrawal plays, though, which is why it would interesting to get some first hand account.
This isn't the same for everyone and it nothing to do with willpower or discipline. My grandparents smoked for roughly 50 years before my grandfather's health deteriorated to the extent he was diagnosed with emphysema and admitted to hospital. My grandmother immediately disposed of all cigarettes and lighters in the house. Neither of them ever smoked again.
My grandfather lived for a few more years as his health declined further. About two years after his last cigarette he confided in me that not a day goes past where he doesn't crave a cigarette. But he never asked for one. He never caved.
My grandmother had a fairly strong physical reaction to quitting initially. She was shocked when her doctor told her the shaking was due to physical withdrawal. She said she felt no different to a heroin addict. But after this physical shock subsided, that was it. She never craved a cigarette again. What's more, she became disgusted by the smell of cigarette smoke encountered in public. It was simply gone from her life.
The difference here is in the psychologically addictive element of cigarettes. Both grandparents had the same physical addiction, but that's nothing. Anyone can overcome that. But the psychological element seemingly ranges from non-existent to unstoppable.
I have experienced the psychologically addictive nature of cigarettes myself, even though I've never smoked. A friend bought some cheap disposable, nicotine-free, e-cigarettes and gave me one. Initially I was going to take it apart and see how it worked. But I tried it, of course. Then I tried it again. And again. There's something about it. Suck through the little pipe. Fill your lungs. See it glow. Exhale the vapour/smoke. My usage was exponential, until it ran out. I immediately considered buying another one. Then I caught myself. I had become addicted to this thing. It's that easy.
This is such a perfect description. I quit years ago but still whenever I see someone smoking I get a craving and when I'm stressed I find myself wishing for a cigarette. I've accepted that it's just something that'll be with me the rest of my life.
Seriously, don't start smoking. It's a mistake that you really can't undo.
I think the "light switch" paradigm works for any drug with very strong addiction potential. Don't even consider doing heroin or nicotine. Cocaine _very_ carefully if you really have to.
Though to be honest nicotine is one of the hardest ones for the simple fact that it's so widespread. You can't really avoid it if your friends smoke or if it's still cool to smoke on TV (i.e. Mad Men). You don't go to a rehab or join a support group and call your sponsor whenever you feel you'd go for one, you'll be on your own. Thankfully it's getting easier and easier these days when it's not socially acceptable to smoke anymore, but still, quitting nicotine is one of the 3 hardest things you'll ever do in your life.
I have no idea. I'm just saying that quitting smoking will be one of those three. Probably not the hardest, but it's up there. FWIW it's the hardest thing I've done in my 34 years of age, it's taken me 10+ years to quit, I'm now 1.5 years nicotine free and I will have to be vigilant for the rest of my life.
My experience quitting smoking was that once I actually quit, I was just done. I don't normally get cravings anymore, though a few times a year, usually after eating a huge meal that leaves me stuffed or while drinking a lot, I'll think "damn, a cigarette would feel so good right now" and then the thought just fades away in a few seconds. TBH even when that happens, what I want isn't the nicotine buzz, it's the feeling of the smoke hitting my throat.
In fact, being around smoke doesn't make me want to smoke again. It's just the opposite, even. The smell of tobacco actively repulses me now, and if anyone lights up near me I start to feel sick. It's become a truly vile smell for me.
The hard part for me was just getting the motivation to quit. Nothing could really get me to want to quit, and I tried switching to vaping multiple times only to go back to kreteks, because I didn't really care if it'd kill me since I didn't really want to live anyway. It wasn't until I decided I wanted to transition that I got serious about quitting, because nicotine + estrogen is a really dangerous combination, so I realized I needed to quit if I ever wanted to be happy with my body. I switched to vaping pretty much instantly, vaped for a grand total of two months, and then decided to take a break for a few days before I got bloodwork done... and a few days _after_ I got my blood drawn I realized I hadn't touched my mod at all since and didn't even miss it, so I gave it back to the friend I borrowed it from, and I've been nicotine-free since (aside from one time, a year later, when I had a single kretek at a club just to prove that I wasn't addicted anymore and could have just one and then stop).
For what it's worth, I was a pack-a-day smoker for several years before I quit, and I've been nicotine-free for seven and a half years now (six and a half if you count the single kretek I had at the club after I quit).
Your edit is also not correct. This is not a "some people" thing. It is a "how you got yourself to stop" thing.
This is only true if you stop by using willpower. You need to reogranize your belief systems in order to dispel the illusions that it actually brings pleasure by understanding that it's just soothing a craving that doesn't exist when you aren't smoking.
If you feel this way, I highly, highly recommend you listen to one of the EasyWay books: https://www.allencarr.com/
I agree that it's likely not a universal experience, but I relate to this so much. I just love smoking, and if we had a way to make it safe I'd be smoking every day. I still miss it a long time after I quit, particularly when the occasion would be perfect for a cigarette. I'm pretty sure that clinical depression is associated somewhat with the hold smoking has/d on me; getting better mentally made it much easier to not smoke.
You can quit smoking and you can stop smoking. I did both.
How do you know you did quit? You actually are quite disgusted by cigarette smoke and byproducts.
First, after 10 years of smoking, I stopped smoking for 4 years but was prone to have a cigarette every couple of months.
Now after 5-6 year relapse I quit for good. Honestly, I don’t miss a thing. The smell sucks, the taste sucks. The only thing that doesn’t suck is watching smoke come out of your mouth, but it’s not THAT enjoyable tbh.
I agree with you and stopped-started smoking on and on for years. I stopped again a year and a half ago. I'm luckily in the phase in which I totally reject the smell of cigarettes (especially packed: rolling tobacco is less harsh); I found that wearing the mask and passing in a cloud of smoke traps that awful smell in my face for much longer and it becomes much more nauseating. One more point for wearing surgical masks in public, I guess.
That was not my experience. I smoked for 13 years, started in 2004, when I was 16. I have had periods when I smoked a pack a day. But in 2017, without even trying to do it, I just realized at some point that I have been forgetting to smoke for a couple of weeks. And I just never bought a new pack after that. Didn't even have to had any disciple of willpower; I'm just that bad at developing any habits.
I gotta say, smoking has not been an addiction for me. After a year of smoking, I quit. I realised I literally didn't get enjoyment from it anymore. 6 years later, here I am, having tasted a cigar just to experience it and otherwise having never thought about tobacco or had urges.
I don't think smoking is always addictive. But, given that it is for almost everyone, I'm utterly fascinated why it wasn't for me.
I quit 20 years ago. I understand your analogy because if I were to smoke one, I would be an addict immediately (imagine sleeping with an old long-time ex). Where your story goes off the rails is that I am not addicted today; my desire is exactly zero. There was a time that I would dream of smoking, so I was still an addict then, but that time is long gone.
I was lucky when I tried my first cigarette in that it just didn't do anything for me. Later I would try cigars on drunk evenings with friends. I enjoyed the smell just never really understood what it was suppose to do. Always wondered about that, maybe just like how covid hits some people really hard perhaps smoking is the same.
My SO and I smoke when we walk the dog, which is 2-3x a week, at night. We've done this for 5+ years, neither of us have got addicted. Sometimes we smoke the last cig in a pack and I'm too lazy to buy another one for several weeks, and we're fine. I wonder if there are others who smoke occasionally like us...
I was like that in my early 20s; bumming smokes off friends here and there, smoking sometimes when I was out at nightclubs or raves, bought a pack once every few months, usually couldn't finish it. It just never grabbed me. And once smoking wasn't permitted at bars and so on, I just never did it again. I smoke a pipe once in a while in the summer if I have good tobacco. Or a cigar on vacation here and there.
It's not that I don't get addicted to things. Caffeine has a strong hold on me. I've even felt nicotine cravings, but they didn't feel hard to ignore. I just think some people have a stronger addictive response to nicotine then others.
It's a major factor in why my 80+ year old father is about to go into his 4th open heart surgery, having had a pacemaker the last 2 of those.
He still smokes. He refuses to quit because he sees it as an all or nothing precipice as you characterize above.
Quitting smoking is not some impossible mountain to climb. Talk to your doctor. What works for you will be context dependent. It does work, as proven by people every day. The answer to physiological dependency is time delay + taper down. The psychological re-enforcement loop will break and fade away.
I have done this and am not speaking in terms of hypotheticals.
You could not force me to smoke in any way. I will physically retch at the thought.
Please do not falsely portray quitting smoking as some eternal struggle. In fact, once you do it, it fades within a comparatively short time.
do you do the diversification trick ? smoking less and finding something else to absorb / massage your mind instead ? so you can find another switch to flick
About 10 years ago I was harassed for months. In my case I wasn't able to find out who it was but they were able do some damage to my marriage and relationship with friends but above all to my well being. When they first started I tended to take my favorite approach in life against such things which is to just ignore the emails and the messages that were being sent to me as well as to my partner but when in a relationship with someone you can't choose not to play the game.
This is all under the bridge now. Since then I've had almost zero social media presence. Internet as I learned about and explored in the 90s and 00s is long gone and what's left is a wasteland to spectate.
Correct. Rybka believes it has the piece superiority and doesn't consider sacrificing a pawn to be an issue but the only pawn that it can sacrifice opens up that side of the board for black. Nakamura explains a little before the sacrifice that if they exchanged queens it'd be almost certain that Rybka would have to sacrifice that pawn to avoid draw.
You need a stick and a throttle. I've been using Saitek X52pro which has both (HOTAS) to play Elite Dangerous with Rift since it came out and they are good but there are many other options available out in the market. For MSFS you may also want to have rudder pedals.
Over the years I've used a lot of editors on unix shell; ed, jed, joe, pico, nano, emacs, vi(m) and I think vim is the best editor on shell for its performance, speed, and mobility. It's a rational choice for SRE/DevOps type engineers. I still sometimes use nano for very quick edits especially when having no physical Esc button frustrates me. However if mobility is not a concern, in other words if I'm editing files on my own environment (say my mac), I'm running Emacs.
