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Fire retardant itself is much more harmful than heavy metals in this context.

It essentially causes neurodegenerative diseases, especially if you inhale it.

This applies to unintuitive routes of exposure, like taking a hot shower on an Air Force base that used flame retardant in fire drills decades prior and breathing in the water suspended in air.


> It essentially causes neurodegenerative diseases, especially if you inhale it.

Good thing they do mandatory evacuations before using it and don't let people back in until clean up has happened.


How are you supposed to clean up fire retardant dropped from a plane over a large area?


With water? Like, hose it down? It's mostly ammonium phosphate anyway and afaik it's water soluble.

Edit: yes it moves it around, and just like the cleaning person at the office does you move it into the water table or drainage system. Or do you separate your dirt when you mop a floor or wash your clothes?


That isn't actually removing anything, it's just spreading it around.

Removing dirt from the carpet and washing it down the drain is fine because ordinary "dirt" (i.e. soil) is made of non-toxic or biodegradable stuff. By contrast, washing toxic materials or heavy metals into the water table is the place you don't want them. There's a reason it's illegal to pour used motor oil down the drain.


And there are plenty of things it's legal to pour down the drain, but illegal to put in rivers, because it (grey water) needs treatment before release into the environment.


Editing a comment is not the way to reply.


So the alternative is to let uninformed civilians clean it with their hose and bare hands?


Presumably some of the alternatives include informing them of what to do and devising less toxic means of fire suppression.


> Fire retardant itself is much more harmful than heavy metals in this context.

I haven't found any studies about that, can you link them? It doesn't look like ammonium phosphate is dangerous.


They are talking about PFAS, which was (is?) in aqueous foam firefighting chemicals that were (are?) in widespread use.

At air force bases, airports (both the trucks and hangar suppression systems), firefighter training facilities. Municipal fire departments have metering devices on their trucks and can mix in the foam additive if it's warranted. Foam is incredibly effective on a lot of fires.

It gets into the groundwater from stuff like accidental hangar fire suppression system triggering, training exercises (at an airport near me, they have a dedicated steel structure that vaguely resembles a jetliner which they use for training, and yes, they use foam every time.) There are a lot of videos on youtube of the systems going off, intentionally (certification after installation - the system has to fill the hangar to X feet of foam within Y time), or accidentally being triggered because someone didn't respond to the prealarm fast enough to get to the control panel and stop it before the system started discharging.

At AF bases, FF training facilities, and airports it gets into the groundwater and it's game over - everyone who gets water from that water table has to install an expensive filtration system. And that's assuming it doesn't get into a nearby river or stream. The stuff gets used on a lot of vehicle fires on highways, those are often near riviers, streams, lakes, reservoirs....

I hadn't heard that PFAS or related chemicals were in the colored flame retardant used in forest fire fighting, though.


AFFF is being/has been phased out pretty much everywhere in the first world. There is still plenty of it around though - disposing of, and then filling with fluorine free foam can be an expensive process.

Personally, it’s about $10/litre to dispose of. Regardless of concentration. So properly rinsing out old equipment is expensive. But I know the situation differs by country, and what’s deemed “acceptable” varies too.

Powder doesn’t contain fluorinated compounds, at least to my knowledge. The role of fluorosurfactants is in increased wetting and emulsifying with hydrocarbons. Not really applicable to a dry agent.

Phos-check doesn’t contain fluorinated compounds.


https://nyulangone.org/news/flame-retardants-pesticides-over...

I don’t think it is shown that the flame retardants used by cal fire are the same as those in the article from nyu.


It's a doomscroller-brained comment, confusing the PFAS fire retardant foams used on military bases with this ammonium phosphate made from mined Phosphorite rock.


AFFF is used in far more than just military bases. Outside of the USA, AFFF extinguishers, small vehicle/building hazard suppression systems, etc. are much more common.

But yes Phos-check isn’t that


Source Please?


I did this after breaking my ankle. I was carefully walking the next day, hiking within a week, and skateboarding within 2-3 weeks. Fully healed after a month or two. Everyone thought I was insane but I'm very glad I did it.

I thought, why should we try to intervene with millions of years of evolution? Inflammation has to be there for a reason. Nitpick that statement all you want but in this specific case I'm glad I didn't mitigate the inflammation.

I was unaware of the acronym HELM and told everyone I was doing the exact opposite of RICE on purpose.


Finland has huge toxic algae bloom problems.

The link between BMAA (from toxic algae blooms) and neurodegenerative diseases in predisposed people is basically causal and proven at this point, but it's allegedly suppressed by Big Fishing and Aquaculture.

You may be right. There are many other components contributing to the problem in Finland, too.


I'm in Estonia, should I also be worried about the toxic algae? I had no idea about this.


> While it is true that their presence in NP-Hard does not require their pressence in NP (and thus are not proved NP Complete)

You're confused here. The two conditions for a problem being NP-complete are (1) it being NP-hard and (2) it being in NP.

You suggest (2) is the issue, but usually it's harder to prove (1) rather than (2). In the context of factorization problems, the factors are simply the certificate that satisfy condition (2).


Your last statement is misleading. A problem being NP-complete isn't exactly the property that allows you to reduce any NP problem to it. Suppose there was a complexity class MP-hard that has no efficient reduction to an NP-complete problem. Then a problem being MP isn't what allows me to write a reduction to the MP-hard problem; I could just as easily write a reduction from a problem in P to the MP-hard problem. Your statement is misleading but incidentally correct because the true condition (NP-hard or easier) happens to be equivalent to your stated condition (NP) for this particular complexity class. It would be clearer to simply state that you can always reduce an easy problem to a harder one.


What?

Being in NP doesn't exclude being in P. Every problem in P is also in NP.

The definition of "NP-complete" is "in NP, and also NP-hard". The definition of "NP-hard" is that you can reduce any NP problem to it using a poly-time mapping reduction (also known as a Karp reduction). So yes, SAT being NP-complete does mean that you can reduce any NP problem to SAT, using a poly-time mapping reduction.

Breaking a hash (e.g. collision finding) is in NP, because you can easily check a proposed solution. Well, with an obvious quibble: P and NP are about asymptotic complexity, but most hash functions are fixed-size. Also if you're looking at complexity theory you might want to talk about targeted collision finding, or first or second preimage resistance, but same deal there. But anyway, supposing you choose a keyed hash that does scale so that you can talk about its asymptotic complexity at all, and has a poly-time cost to evaluate it, breaking that hash would be in NP. Therefore it can be reduced to SAT using a poly-time mapping reduction.


I agree with you, I just think the condition "being in NP" is needlessly confusing. The whole point is that you can always find a reduction from easier problems to harder ones. It just so happens that NP encompasses all the problems easier than SAT.

The reason why your statement is confusing to me is that if you generalize it beyond NP, it breaks down; for an arbitrarily hard complexity class M and an arbitrary M-hard problem, you don't need to be in M to be able to find a reduction to the M-hard problem.


OK, I'm sorry for the touchy response. But I still don't understand your point.

Breaking a hash is a prototypical NP problem (ok maybe FNP). SAT is the prototypical NP-hard problem.

I was just trying to explain that using SAT to attack hashes is therefore unsurprising, and does not in any way imply that breaking hashes is NP-complete, the way that it would if the reduction went in the other direction.

Surely the same logic would make sense for another class M, if you had a problem "M-HASH" that's clearly in M, and an M-hard problem "M-SAT" to reduce it to? There might be other problems that you could also reduce to M-SAT, but mentioning that it solves all of M is what's relevant if M-HASH is in M.


Yes, I apologize for being combative. I see your point now.

I think I'm also wrong.

I thought about my original response some more and this is a more coherent version of what I was trying to say:

A problem being in NP is sufficient but not necessary to reduce it to an NP-complete problem.

But that's wrong. It's both sufficient and necessary to be in NP. It intuitively feels like you're tacking on more than you need to by introducing the "necessary" constraint, but it makes sense.


Ah. I didn't mean to introduce a "necessary" constraint at all, but my wording wasn't the best.


The link between BMAA and neurodegenerative diseases is well established. New Brunswick has huge BMAA problems. The fishing and aquaculture industry is alleged to suppress the BMAA theory, because less people would buy and eat New Brunswick lobster and fish.


Everything in finance is isomorphic to some combination of borrow-lend agreements. Betting markets and futures markets are functionally one in the same. The only difference is the oracles and the series of bets required to construct your position.


Amazing comment.

But hamburgers and dildos are good. It's not pleasure itself that has an ugly face; rather, it's seeking pleasure in spite of the cost to others.

You offer spiritualism as a cure. I think our higher end should be not spiritualism but the well-being of those we care about.

It's nice that spiritualism covers all bases: you should care about and help your friends and family; you should practice gratitude; etc. But we should state those things directly, lest fundamentalist screwball ideas like restriction of individual expression creep in under the guise of moral righteousness.


Indeed. I also wanted to appreciate the comment. It deserves a longer form.-


I was similarly confused and finally decided that the commenter could have also been referring to the unsubstantiated fact that Americans drink more black/drip/pour over than Europeans, who mostly drink espresso-derived variants.

I say "unsubstantiated" because a cursory web search didn't turn anything up. Anecdotally, it seems true.


mostly drink espresso-derived variants.

I'd say in general there is a very clear north/south divide in Europe when it comes to coffee. Northern Europe drinks more filter coffee and souther Europe drinks mostly espresso. Of course over the past couple of decades a lot of 'foreign' influences has greatly changed how Northern Europeans drink coffee (much like in the US)


Next, how do they make flame retardant chemicals safe? Exposure to them, even via routes you might not think of, like living near a runway that conducts fire extinguishing drills and then taking a shower in a nearby building and breathing in the runoff, is heavily implicated in numerous extremely debilitating conditions like Parkinson's, dementia, and various cancers.


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