> The latter have been emulated in software using trap handlers, but there was a significant performance penalty.
This is a thing SoC vendors have done before without informing their customers until it's way too late. Quite a few players in that industry really do have shockingly poor ethical standards.
I'm not sure if it's intentional. AWS doesn't have CPU features in their EC2 product documentation, either. It doesn't necessarily mean that they can disable CPU features for instances covered by existing customer contracts.
This is the sort of comment that makes people lose faith in HN.
There totally are cases where it's intentional, and no they are not discussed on the internet for obvious reasons. People in the industry will absolutely know what I'm on about.
I didn't intend to dismiss your experience. From the opposite (software) side, these things are hard to document, and unclear hardware requirement documentation result from the complexity and (perhaps) unresolved internal conflict.
Yes, I should have linked that story myself, it's one of the things that provoked the comment.
There are differences for street legality mainly around importing older cars which meant at one point the JDM scene in Canada had access to a lot more cars than the US did.
I'm also curious to see if we will see more "no drive zones".
We see this in other domains: I recently talked to someone from an asset inspection (think flying around bridges to check for fractures) company. They can't use DJI drones because of security concerns.
What has astounded me about all this is the extent to which so much of our industry fall crisply into one of two groups: 1. Chinese stuff is cheap incompetent rubbish anyway, anyone near it is by definition a loser, so who cares? 2. Chinese stuff is perfect, amazing and we should just stop doing everything and buy what they're selling. They'll totally open factories here and give us jobs too!
The actual reality, which people like your asset inspection firm are dealing with, is the Chinese have leapfrogged the west in so many important respects, but to preserve security we have to live in an expensive technological backwater since the leaders of our society are so resistant to internal disruptive competition that may result in other people displacing them.
The security concerns are real, China restricts teslas from driving onto military installations for example. Anyhow, this is what we need data protection laws for, not trade protectionism. Canada should prevent exfiltration of data, not the sale of Chinese EVs in general
Nah, it is probably directly the xserver, or even the firmware of the display hardware block. An easy vector is the steam client or games. Hardware virtualization is amazing for complex malware/spyware.
You would have to man-in-the-middle your network traffic then use a custom communication path to handle the correlation with your network usage with the right data probe added to the linux kernel ethernet driver. The problem: since I cannot remove the wifi hardware from my motherboard, all that is useless.
It's this now, but 3D printers, Meshtastic, and the ESP32 all seem likely to catch the ire of the administration if some deal is not done in the coming years.
I've been saying it for ages, but a decent easily available western equivalent to the ESP32 (meaning easy WiFi) needs to happen, and until it does there will be a giant hole in the middle of the entire maker universe, which increasingly acts as the prototyping stage for commercialized gadgetry.
I agree on the need to create an ESP32 equivalent. But the ESP32 doesn't really correlate to DJI here. DJI collects a massive amount of telemetry data and terrain data, forces the average user to upload this data, and isn't exactly forthcoming about what is collected or how it is used.
An ESP32 can, for the most part, be fully audited in what it is sending. Yes, the wireless drivers are binary blobs, but the developer has extensive control over the device, and it is easy to monitor/filter/firewall the data sent.
3D printers, as a general category, are also more similar to the ESP32 than to DJI.
> DJI collects a massive amount of telemetry data and terrain data
At first I found it hard to believe that this is data they wouldn't get more reliably, more extensively from a satellite. But then I imagine, if you were a bad actor, you wouldn't want all the video, all the exact terrain data, etc, but maybe only that near certain points of interest like energy infrastructure, transportation, etc. So this, paired with satellite data is super powerful.
Then again, for most of the US, Google street view exists so there's that, a lot of the data is already out there.
You are right. Also, it's not just data from the US, it's data from around the world. It also comes in real-time or near real-time, so you gain insight into where drones are actively flying. If you've managed to fingerprint interesting users in some way, you now have stats on where they are, what they are deeming interesting to look at, and so on. You're also getting much better imagery and views of things you are not going to get from a satellite.
This is not about recreating google maps data. The US banning DJI drones is really a necessity at this point. It's not a complete solution to the problems at hand, but there is no point in supporting China in this way.
I feel like blocking DJI is just politics of “we have have to do something, anything” and “hey look, we did things” even though those things are irrelevant.
> I've been saying it for ages, but a decent easily available western equivalent to the ESP32 (meaning easy WiFi) needs to happen
- Texas Instruments SimpleLink CC32xx (CC3220 / CC3235)
- TI CC3235MODA module
- Renesas DA16200
- Microchip PIC32MZ-W1
- Microchip WFI32 module family
- Silicon Labs SiWx917 / SiWG917
- Silicon Labs SiWx917Y module
- Nordic Semiconductor nRF7001/7002 WiFi 6 IC
- Use with nRF52, nRF53 or nRF91 series SoCs
- STMicroelectronics STM32 with ST67W series pre-certified WiFi modules
These solutions are priced well for commercial and industrial solutions at scale.
If necessary one can use any cheap hobby solution for initial development and then port to an industrial-class SoC solution. We've done this a few times during pandemic era shortages; using the RP2040 to get through prototyping and development and then switching the design to an industrial-grade chip.
What's missing from these parts which makes people reach for ESP32 by default instead? (I don't have any experience with ESP32.)
The TI parts seem a bit expensive in small quantities, but the Microchip and SiliLabs parts are like $6-7 in single units from Digi-Key. Is it just that the dev kits are in the >$50 price range which puts people off compared to ESP32?
> The TI parts seem a bit expensive in small quantities, but the Microchip and SiliLabs parts are like $6-7 in single units from Digi-Key. Is it just that the dev kits are in the >$50 price range which puts people off compared to ESP32?
It helps to separate hobbyist use from professional product development.
The hobby market is driven by quick, cheap, and easy: low up-front cost, abundant tutorials, and inexpensive dev boards. In that context, ESP32 shines, and expensive dev kits can be a real psychological barrier.
For commercial, industrial, or professional products, however, small-quantity pricing is often irrelevant. Sample or single-unit prices rarely reflect real production costs. Without getting into specifics, it’s common for the ratio between sample pricing and volume pricing to be 10× or more.
A part that costs $20 in onesies can easily be a $2 part at scale. This doesn’t apply universally, but it does mean that judging a device’s suitability for mass production based on Digi-Key single-unit pricing is usually a mistake.
There are also system-level considerations beyond the MCU’s line item price. For example, the RP2040 could be very inexpensive (around $0.50 in modest volumes when we used it), but that ignores the required external flash, which adds cost, board space, and supply-chain complexity. More importantly for many products, it offers no meaningful code security (the external flash can simply be read out—which can be a non-starter in commercial designs).
Guaranteed long-term availability can be crucially important as well; with design support requirements in commercial/industrial settings often extending past ten year timelines.
Tooling and ecosystem maturity also matter. At the time, the RP2040 toolchain was notably hostile to Windows, and Raspberry Pi support reflected that attitude. In reality, most product development (EE, MCAD, manufacturing, test, PLM/ERP) is Windows-centric. Asking an organization to bolt a Linux-only toolchain onto an otherwise Windows-based workflow just to save a dollar on an MCU is rarely a winning argument.
So while cost absolutely matters, it’s often not the dominant factor in professional design. Security, tooling, vendor support, long-term availability, and integration into existing workflows frequently outweigh a few dollars of MCU price, particularly once production pricing enters the picture.
> What's missing from these parts which makes people reach for ESP32 by default instead?
I didn’t directly answer that question before.
Strictly speaking, nothing essential is missing from many of these other parts. In fact, in professional contexts they often have better documentation, support, longevity guarantees, or security features than ESP32.
One of the biggest differentiators is simply pricing strategy. Espressif has used aggressively low pricing (what many would reasonably call predatory pricing) to capture mindshare and market share. That playbook is hardly new; it’s been used successfully across industries for decades. Ultra-cheap silicon, combined with inexpensive dev boards, dramatically lowers the barrier to entry and makes ESP32 the default choice, especially for hobbyists and startups.
Price pressure also creates a feedback loop: more users means more tutorials, libraries, examples, and community support, which in turn makes the platform feel easier and safer to choose, even when alternatives might be technically superior.
For teams operating in cost-driven markets, this can become unavoidable. If your product lives or dies on BOM cost, reaching for the cheapest viable part may not be optional. I spent several years in that environment myself, and while it’s a valid constraint, it tends to push decisions toward short-term cost optimization rather than long-term engineering value.
So the answer isn’t that these parts lack features, it’s that ESP32 combines good-enough capabilities with exceptionally aggressive pricing and a massive ecosystem, which together make it the default choice in many contexts.
> These solutions are priced well for commercial and industrial solutions at scale.
Translation: they're expensive, and getting them working involves jumping through hoops more complex than simply getting boards off Amazon and launching VS Code. They aren't equivalent, and the sneering isn't helping.
It is failing to understand this that opens the door to DJI and Bambu, who unsurprisingly prioritize user experience and predictability, which is a major factor in why in open competition they keep wiping the floor with everyone.
> Translation: they're expensive, and getting them working involves jumping through hoops more complex than simply getting boards off Amazon and launching VS Code. They aren't equivalent, and the sneering isn't helping.
Who's sneering?
Complexity is a relative assessment. Bringing up 8, 16 and 32 bit MCUs/SoC's has never in history been easier. Decades ago we used to have to bring up our boards from nothing, sometimes even having to write our own RTOS, boot code, firmware update code, etc. Today? A high school kid could do it with most chips. Go check out the STM32 Cube ecosystem for a glimpse.
I do understand that this is still likely daunting for hobbyists. I am not talking about arduino-level hobby users. That is not my world at all. However, understand that the commercial/industrial market is orders of magnitude larger than the hobby markets, and the rules and requirements are different.
> It is failing to understand this that opens the door to DJI and Bambu, who unsurprisingly prioritize user experience and predictability, which is a major factor in why in open competition they keep wiping the floor with everyone.
Are you responding to someone else's comment? This has nothing to do with what I was addressing. I am talking about chips, and, in particular, SoC (System on Chip) solutions for WiFi applications. These are components used by engineers to design products. You are talking about finished products. You might as well add blender and microwave oven manufacturers to that list.
You're missing the point: the line between hobbyist and prototype now doesn't exist - there is a continuum where devices are made in single digits, tens of units, and progressively scaled up. This isn't the 80s/90s where you make none or thousands. Even those Amazon made wall socket relay things are ESP based after all.
In this universe the old way of doing things makes no sense.
> Who's sneering?
Your comment was, and you still are like:
> However, understand that the commercial/industrial market is orders of magnitude larger than the hobby markets, and the rules and requirements are different.
In fact the hobby market now has _tougher_ requirements (particularly for software support, which Wifi necessitates) than the commercial and industrial one, and would not tolerate the level of random hacks/erratum that are spat out by the major chip providers.
> You're missing the point: the line between hobbyist and prototype now doesn't exist - there is a continuum where devices are made in single digits, tens of units, and progressively scaled up. This isn't the 80s/90s where you make none or thousands. Even those Amazon made wall socket relay things are ESP based after all.
Yeah, no. Sorry, you don't know what you are talking about.
I've gone from self-funded garage startup to millions of dollars in annual sales twice in my life (> $40MM annual with my current business, targeting 10x that within five years). And, yes, I've also had several truly memorable failures (including going bankrupt).
What you are saying might only align with reality at a trivial business level. Even today. Making ten or a hundred gizmos for Etsy with no concern given to the requirements of real comercial/industrial products? Sure. Anything else, no, you are wrong.
> In fact the hobby market now has _tougher_ requirements (particularly for software support, which Wifi necessitates) than the commercial and industrial one, and would not tolerate the level of random hacks/erratum that are spat out by the major chip providers.
Once again, sorry, you might want to stop, this statement shows just how little you know. There's nothing in hobby-world that even remotely compares to the requirements of commercial and industrial products.
Simple example: Nobody producing hobby products worries about setting someone's house on fire or making a device that interferes with pacemakers.
Please go ask ChatGPT what it costs to obtain UL, FCC, TUV, CE and other certifications for a non-trivial electronic or electromechanical product. Depending on many factors, the number is going to be between $25K and well over $100K.
So, if you are doing it legally and with all safety and other certifications, your cost basis starts at around $25K JUST FOR THE CERTIFICATIONS. If you manufacture 100 units, that would be $250 per unit in regulatory costs. So, how do you sell a hobby gizmo for $10 or $25? Simple, you ignore all of that and just sell it. And if it burns down someone's home, interferes with pacemakers or had other negative repercussions you ignore it, go out of business or whatever.
The millions of Chinese products on Amazon in this category are "fire and forget" products. The manufacturers could not care less what happens or what harm they may cause. There are plenty of stories of cheap USB charge adapters that have caused fires, etc. Certifications obtained in China for these products are mostly fake and cannot be relied upon at all (I have seen some truly horrific things).
BTW, there's nothing wrong with not knowing. We don't know everything, nobody does. What is ill-advised is to behave as though we did know.
One way to look at it is that the hobby market is the domain of a range of people spanning a range from kids to adult tinkerers and enthusiasts. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I was a kid designing and building computers (from bare IC's) before I went to university. The commercial, industrial, medical and aerospace markets are the domain of professionals. There's a vast knowledge, capability, responsibility and requirements gap between those two worlds. One does not negate the other and it isn't sneering to say that hobby products rarely measure up to products designed for other markets.
> Yeah, no. Sorry, you don't know what you are talking about.
"OK". This is why your snark is so easily detectable, you're the one that doesn't see how things have moved on.
> Once again, sorry, you might want to stop, this statement shows just how little you know. There's nothing in hobby-world that even remotely compares to the requirements of commercial and industrial products.
> Simple example: Nobody producing hobby products worries about setting someone's house on fire or making a device that interferes with pacemakers.
Yeah, they do. What do you think the 3D printer community worries about? It's a rapidly moving heating element shooting hot plastic, an inherent health and fire hazard if it goes wrong. If the likes of Bambu got this wrong you would absolutely know about it.
If drone control software crashes what happens? It falls out of the sky on to people.
And here you are coping that 3D printers or drones are easy products to develop in consumer friendly form.
I've worked on tablets and cellphones prototypes (things shipping in tens of millions per model variant) we had burn people in testing because of bugs caused by the usual supposedly reputable manufacturers. You can tell by some of the devices that actually shipped that big corp enthusiasm for risk taking can easily exceed what smaller scale producers will accept, and that to the right people it presents no obstacle to certification.
The Chinese have overtaken the west at actually being good at consumer electronics development, and the denial about this from people is frightening.
If I argue with my wife about medical matters (she is an MD) her response might look or sound snarky to some. In reality, she would be correct in telling me how and why I would be wrong.
You really need to stop, because you are digging a deeper hole with every word. You just said that 3D printers and drone are easy consumer products to develop. You truly do not understand what it takes to develop these products. The vast majority of them are still incredibly unsafe. There's a minority that have greatly enhanced safety. It should not be surprising that the safe systems (with a couple of exceptions) cost tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of dollars and address commercial/industrial markets, not hobby. The amount of engineering and testing these systems require is nothing less than massive.
Context: I've been designing, building and flying all kinds of RC planes, gliders, helicopters and multicopters for four decades. I have been designing, building and using 3D printers for over two decades. Our latest 3D printer for internal use is equipped with Teknic Clearpath motors with fully machined structure and parts made on our Haas CNC Vertical Machining Centers.
Again, please, chill, nobody is insulting the hobby world (which you seem to be offended by). These are different worlds. That's how it has been from the start of time. And that's OK.
Here, I'll help you stop. Let's agree to disagree. You are absolutely right and I am wrong.
> You really need to stop, because you are digging a deeper hole with every word. You just said that 3D printers and drone are easy consumer products to develop.
Basically you can't actually read then and are just imagining things to argue with while slinging insults.
I said the exact opposite of what you are claiming - you're the one dismissing the entire hobbyist field, while attempting to deflect otherwise.
I simply started this comment thread to say that there's a substantial, massive, actually, difference between hobby and commercial/industrial products and here you are blowing it up into a fucking ridiculous moronic argument trying to say this isn't true.
SiLabs RS9116, Nordic nRF7002, TI CC3235, Dialog DA16200, ...
They exist, they just don't ship to individual nobodies without NDAs and months of talks and supply commitments, therefore we might as well consider them nonexistent. And that's sinking the whole world into oblivion, and no one(sane) is doing anything about it.
Chinese equivalents of Western products ship same day to mail drops at two digits below USD denominated global market manufacturing costs. That's their secret sauce. Or tried and true East Asian miracles strategy, of exploiting material independence to vacuum in foreign currency that are short of cost but are just trustless bundles of paper anyway. Economic competition is not possible when that's possible for them and nobody else - NOBODY else, not like "only for Asian backwater whatever failed state", but China, for now, specifically.
I'm actually from Japan and, with goggles of a maker on, DJI behavior feels reminiscent of Sony until it sank. The tech is top notch, and prices make progressively less sense towards higher ends. That kills competitions by denying sales of high end products(IMO. I'm not a sane person).
Indeed, but they also took the magic part of their product development philosophy of focusing on making the whole end-to-end process for users absolutely solid, which both companies do better than anyone else in those segments.
Come on, the Alexa devices are designed to do what? They wake up on a keyword, perform some local analysis of the following data, and phone home on an encrypted channel on a regular basis.
You quite literally can't tell by watching one what it is doing. You certainly cannot verify that all Alexas are not doing something.
I don’t think Amazon have a vast conspiracy (that no one has whistleblown on!) of secretly & illegally recording audio for advertising. It would be difficult, require huge amounts of processing, probably not help very much, and be incredibly illegal. It wouldn’t give them much value and would be incredibly risky
> These apps will continue receiving updates, with the latest versions adopting the beautiful new visual design language with Liquid Glass on all platforms
Are the Apple people really this oblivious, or is someone in PR trolling us?
Of course not, but I'd rephrase what the OP said as something more like "it's unrealistic to expect them to go 'hey, guess what, never mind about all that' after a half a year.
I think it's more realistic to expect that they're going to stick with a UI officially called "Liquid Glass" for the next decade, but it's going to go through some serious iterative changes in the next couple of years -- probably much more than it would have were Alan Dye still around.
I read it less as obliviousness and more as internal language leaking into marketing. What’s “Liquid Glass” to Apple reads like an aesthetic system though but to outsiders it sounds like jargon inflation. I feel the gap between internal coherence and external clarity shows up in these releases a lot.
You’ve never worked at BigCorp have you? At Amazon, part of the initial indoctrination when I was hired there was competitive messaging when talking to clients (I worked in ProServe) and what you were never allowed to say. I remember we could never say we had a “moat”.
Doesn’t matter. The apps run on the OS, the latest hardware only runs the OS at the hardware release date and later. You’re getting the Fisher-Price UI whether you want it or not, even if the apps never change a thing.
I guess it's enforced top-down. Yesterday I picked up my MacBook from a logicboard repair and they forced Tahoe on it despite running Sonoma originally so I spent most of yesterday getting rid of Tahoe and reverting back to Sonoma.
Each new macOS version brings new restrictions causing some essential apps to stop working or work in a more complicated way so I keep delaying macOS upgrades as late as possible. macOS used to be an OS that lowered my cognitive complexity but that's no longer true these days due to security overreach.
As a macOS sysadmin I feel this in my bones, and of course I don't know what apps are essential for you, but FWIW Sequoia has been basically identical to Sonoma for me. In fact I had to double check what I was running on this computer before writing this because there's just no functional or aesthetic difference that I know of off the top of my head.
(And yes, I'm holding off on Sonoma for as long as possible because... yuck)
Fine, but also how to explain the crazy claims flying around the internet that London is a warzone and a no-go area? I live here and... seriously, nothing has changed. I feel perfectly safe and always have.
Yeah sure, there's some phone theft, it's not great. This phone theft wave is just a symptom of everyone carrying £500 devices around. Big cities have always had theft, pickpocket and snatching crimes. But it's nothing astonishingly new or different. I know one person who had their phone snatched, never seen it happen myself.
So how to explain this massive wave of social media posts making out that London's unsafe? There is definitely a narrative being pushed, whether by Russian bots or not, I cannot say.
Because everyone that experiences the crime stops tolerating it and leaves. This is why the area around the greenbelt so closely resembles the inner cities of 20 years before. This isn't some new phenomenon - Lee Kuan Yew famously described the newspaper purchasing arrangement at Piccadilly Circus in the 1950s, which was incomprehensible by the 1980s.
I'm old enough to remember when they had posters telling people not to wear iPod white earphones because that will get you mugged (and it would) - pure blaming the victim nonsense.
If London defenders were half as enthusiastic about cleaning up their city as they are about attacking anyone pointing out the all too obvious problems they genuinely would be in utopia.
I lived in South London a few decades ago, it was the exact same situation.
Lived in central London, close to 100% of the crime was happening from one area. Police refused to go into that area because of "community relations". No crime in areas that didn't abut this location but no desire to fix. Police pretend to police.
Moved to South London, crime more prevalent but, again, certain areas are worse. Police won't go to these areas, "community relations" even worse. Cash machine near housing estate treated like lootbox. Next election comes round, candidate spends most of their time canvassing on estate. Police only go onto the estate to attend events with "community" telling them they are bigots. Crime continues.
Everyone who works this out either leaves or, if they get enough money, move to safe areas of West London. Today's Londoners do not realise everyone has left, it is just a bunch of people who moved there in the last ten years telling everyone how brilliant it is and pretending they have lived there for years before being forced to leave too. Property prices suggest that actual long-term citizens are continuing to leave in large numbers.
> Everyone who works this out either leaves or, if they get enough money, move to safe areas of West London. Today's Londoners do not realise everyone has left, it is just a bunch of people who moved there in the last ten years telling everyone how brilliant it is and pretending they have lived there for years before being forced to leave too. Property prices suggest that actual long-term citizens are continuing to leave in large numbers.
Painfully accurate.
The fact even Lily Allen, of all people, made a music video about delusional Londoners telling themselves it's all fine, when it's not, speaks volumes, and they're still at it. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmYT79tPvLg )
What are we supposed to do to “clean up our city”? I live in one of the worst areas, statistically, for crime and haven’t experienced anything beyond porch piracy and someone trying my car door.
My girlfriend walks to/from the train station daily in the early morning and late night without any trouble and personal safety isn’t even something we spend any time thinking about. Obviously crime happens, but against other comparable large cities it’s only really Tokyo and a few cities in semi-authoritarian countries that seem that much safer to me. Big European cities are about the same and US cities are much worse.
Beyond reporting anything I see, which I do, I’m not sure what kind of cleaning up you expect me to do? Obviously it’s a factor in how I vote, but it’s not even a top 3 issue to be honest.
> My girlfriend walks to/from the train station daily in the early morning and late night without any trouble and personal safety isn’t even something we spend any time thinking about.
You understand this is the kind of thing those of us that lived there have heard a million times?
It's exactly what people say before the thing that happens that makes them leave.
> US cities are much worse.
This also is not the case, and it's amazing how propagandized the UK has to be to think it. If you lot were aware of the true standard of life in most of the US you'd riot.
(ii) people who left London because they were victims of a crime.
I'm genuinely sorry that you were the victim of a crime, but people in group (ii) are obviously likely to have a negative perception of London regardless of how much or how little crime London actually has.
By way of analogy, consider that there are people who experienced a traumatic air accident and who have never flown again. I don't blame them. But their experiences don't countervail the statistics showing that flying is safe.
>> US cities are much worse.
> This also is not the case, and it's amazing how propagandized the UK has to be to think it. If you lot were aware of the true standard of life in most of the US you'd riot.
I've lived in London and DC, and DC (at the time at least, 2007-2011) was uncontroversially much more dangerous than London.
And of course it's only 6 months ago that the President of the USA declared a public safety emergency in DC ;) You're not wrong about the overall standard or living, but you are wrong about crime and safety.
Bad things can happen anywhere. A one-off incident wouldn’t make me leave.
I visit the US often and have been a victim of crime there more often than anywhere in Europe. That’s not to say I don’t love the US. San Diego is probably my favourite city in the world. But apart from one or two exceptions, large US cities suffer from far worse crime than anywhere in the UK. I got mugged at gunpoint by a crackhead in Philly. Quality of life can be fantastic of course. My aunt lives in a gated community in LA and drives to work so she never has to interact with the real world, so to speak, and her QoL is amazing. But large parts of the city are absolutely dystopian.
Try walking from Fashion District to Chinatown and tell me where you’d find something like that anywhere in London, let alone Z1. I don't even know if I've seen anything that bad in actual third world cities.
This is a thing SoC vendors have done before without informing their customers until it's way too late. Quite a few players in that industry really do have shockingly poor ethical standards.
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