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Elon's superpower is commanding insane valuation premiums. The trouble with this is that "the bill eventually comes due", so to speak, which forces Elon's companies to take wilder and wilder bets, or to make wilder and wilder promises.

With telsa it was robotaxis, and when that failed to materialize, humanoid robots (fucking LOL).

SpaceX is an even more insane example. They are eyeing an IPO at a 1.5 trillion valuation. And yet the market for satellite launches is simply not that big. (What would you do with a satellite, if I gifted you one for free?). Estimates have SpaceX doing about $3B in annual earnings, which would give them a 500x earnings multiple at a 1.5T valuation (Apple: 35).

And so SpaceX/Elon had to invent the absolutely idiotic idea of "data centers in space" to sell some future vision of tens of thousands of launches per year.

He keeps upping the ante (and the ridiculousness of the vision), and so far investors keep funding it.

Me? I've realized that this madness is entirely "opt-in" and I choose to simply...not opt-in.


What would you do with a satellite, if I gifted you one for free?

Let's forget orbital mechanics for a while to make this answer more fun. It would follow me around and provide a dedicated, private lifeline of communication anywhere I go, real-time aerial surveillance of my surroundings, and eventually lasers to zap anyone who pisses me off.


Yes, and the reality is that any of those would require a fairly large constellation of satellites. I guess the play is that many large constellations of satellites will be launched.

Not really. That's only the case for LEO sats. Going up higher gets you hemispheric coverage with a single bird.

You wouldn't like the latency on the internet connection. And this isn't even theoretical: it's why LEO constellations were a big deal.

the humanoid robots thing is so ridiculous, theres no way that comes to fruition

> Estimates have SpaceX doing about $3B in annual earnings

Ummm that information seems terribly out of date or is just uninformed- Starlink alone is estimated around $8 billion for 2024 and projected around $12 billion for 2025, with continued growth.


That's revenue. Earnings (profit) is what's relevant, because as you can imagine putting stuff in space is pretty expensive!

Voting is not a monolithic process. It's actually a combination of 3 things:

- How votes are cast

- How votes are counted

- How votes are custodied

In order for an election to be trusted, all three steps must be transparent and auditable.

Electronic voting makes all three steps almost absolutely opaque.

Here's how Mexico solves this. We may have many problems, but "people trust the vote count" is not one of them:

1. Everyone votes, on paper, in their local polling station. The polling station is manned by volunteers from the neighborhood, and all political parties have an observer at the station.

2. Once the polling station closes, votes are counted in the station, by the neighborhood volunteers, and the counts are observed by the political party observers.

3. Vote counts are then sent electronically to a central system. They are also written on paper and the paper is displayed outside the poll both for a week.

The central system does the total count, but the results from each poll station are downloadable (to verify that the net count matches), and every poll station's results are queryable (so any voter can compare the vote counts displayed on paper outside the station to the online results).

Because the counting is distributed, results are available night-of in most cases.

Elections like this can be gamed, but the gaming becomes an exercise in coercing people to vote counter to their preference, not "hacking" the system.

**

Edit: Some people are confused about what I mean by "coerced." Coerced in this case means "forced to vote in some way."

The typical way this is done is as follows:

- The "coercer" obtains a blank ballot (for example, by entering the ballot box and hiding the ballot away).

- The blank ballot is then filled out in some way outside the poll station.

- A person is given the pre-filled ballot and threatened to cast it, which they will prove by returning a blank ballot.

- Rinse and repeat.

This mode of cheating is called the "revolving door" for obvious reasons.


What I failed to understand is why only in the US the voting procedure is so controversial. Want paper vote? That's racism. Want counting in a day? That's xenophobia. Want to limit certain time window for counting? That's definitely racism. It's funny that the US criticized that EU countries were getting less democratic. Well, at least those countries have a much more sane voting process.

> Want paper vote? That's racism. Want counting in a day? That's xenophobia. Want to limit certain time window for counting? That's definitely racism.

This characterization is reductive and basically a straw-man.

The principle underlying opposition to "counting in one day" is basically that every vote that is correctly placed in time should be counted, and as many people as possible should have access to voting. Mail-in voting, for example, has been shown to increase voter turnout by making voting more convenient, but you have the question of what to do with ballots that are received late. There are pretty good arguments for counting all mail-in ballots that are postmarked before the election, and I don't think "xenophobia" is among them.

In America specifically, all decisions relating to access to voting are considered against a backdrop of our widespread and systematic attempt to restrict voting. A modern example of this is related to wide disparity in the number of polling places, and therefore the amount of time required to vote, in "urban" regions of some southern states as compared to rural regions.

I have never heard of a racism-based opposition to paper ballots. I think you just made that up.


> voter turnout

Make voting mandatory and on public holiday. Problem solved.


The people championing one day voting don't propose this, because they would prefer to bias voting towards people with lots of time off.

I think these claims are badly miscontrued at best, and match one party's outlook. The Republican Party has tried inhibiting voting in ways that benefit them, often by making it more difficult for minorities to vote.

Many of those tactics existed on a large scale in the South before the Voting Rights Act, and when the Supreme Court recently invalidated the Act, many have returned. For example, reducing voting locations in minority areas so people have to travel far and wait longer. Texas and possibly other states have criminalized errors in voter registration (iirc), making it dangerous to register voters. Georgia, and others, conducted a large-scale purge of voting rolls, requiring people to re-register. Requiring government-issued ID prevents many people from voting, often poor people and immigrants who lack what wealthier people are accustomed to. Florida's voters passed a ballot measure enabling ex-felons to vote; the Republicans added a law requiring full restitution to be paid (iirc) before they could vote, effectively canceling the ballot measure vote. And these days almost any Democratic victory is called fraud; remember the 2000 election, the lawsuits, riots, threats against ordinary citizens working on local election boards and on elections, etc.

Directly addressing the parent's claims: I've never heard of paper votes being called racism - could you share something with us? Calls to limit counting are often accompanied by calls to limit the voting period, invalidate votes received later (e.g., due to US mail delays), and calls to greatly restrict mail-in voting - all things that make it more difficult for people working two-three jobs.

The Democrats have their flaws; I've never seen them try to limit voting. That should be something everyone in the US - and in the world - agrees on: Do all we can to enable everyone to vote.


Are you American? Are you white?

There are historical factors that contribute to those things you brought up. American minorities are disproportionately affected by things like limited hours, for example. You'd know that if you were an American POC.


GP has also taken these issues and personalized them. They're about impact and access, not whether the person raising the idea is racist or a xenophobe or whatever.

I don't understand the critique. Nobody has ever made these claims.

I don't mean this as an ad hominem, but was this comment generated with AI or something?


You'll find those claims in sibling comments to yours, so they are clearly pretty real!

(At the time of writing this comment there's a sibling claiming that the comment cannot possibly understand this POV because they are not "an American POC.")


The specific comment by popalchemist you're referring to is actually fine (they're talking about voter suppression, which is a problem in the US), and isn't at all one of the claims that hintymad says people are making.

> You'll find those claims in sibling comments to yours, so they are clearly pretty real!

Really, where? In the sibling comments (including mine) people are pointing out that those claims are specious.


Politicians just use those accusations as cover for conducting fraud or enabling the conditions that they inherently benefit from. There's no reason to not use paper, ID checks, and same-day accounting.

> There's no reason to not use paper, ID checks, and same-day accounting.

Sure there is. ID checks make it impossible for people who don't have government-issued ID to vote, which is a lot of people; and furthermore ID checks don't actually improve election security. Same-day counting is impossible if you are going to count all mail-in votes that were sent before the deadline.

To be clear, I'm not saying that politicians aren't agitating for conditions that benefit them. That's there job. But I also believe in supporting access to voting and fair elections, and at least some of the politicians' arguments help achieve those ends.


Yeah, I forgot voter ID. All democratic countries mandate voter ID except the US and another couple(?). Yeah, as if only the US has the "voter access" problem

There are many reasons not to do those things, "lalala not listening" isn't an excuse.

It's usually very simple, too. For voting ID: ID isn't evenly distributed, and that's not an opinion, that's a fact.

So if you require ID, then obviously you will suppress some demographics more than others. That creates a bias. Again, not opinion.

This can be solved. You will notice none of the people championing voter ID make even a thinly-veiled attempt to solve it. Instead they say stupid things like "oh wow so black people can't get ID now? Uh, buddy, I think YOU'RE the racist one!"


> Want to limit certain time window for counting?

Why would you want that?

Surely what you want is to enable everyone to vote, and then to count all the votes?

In the UK where I have most experience of this stuff, there are many, many small polling stations, and usually you just walk right in and vote without queueing. The longest I ever had to wait to vote was about 30 minutes. Votes are counted locally and results usually declared within a handful of hours. Some take longer due to recounts etc if the tally is very close in a certain area, but the whole thing is pretty uncontroversial and pretty low-effort.

Here in Australia, voting is compulsory, it's always on a Saturday, and there's usually a charity sausage-sizzle at the polling place, it's sorta fun. And again, AFAICT (I'm not a citizen yet) the infrastructure is over-provisioned so people aren't waiting around forever.

From what I hear about the US, in some places voting can take hours, it seems like the number of polling places is deliberately limited to make it hard for people to vote, and you have those weird/horrible rules cropping up like it being illegal to hand out water to people in line, which seems purely designed to discourage electoral participation. And then you have all these calls to stop the count after a certain time etc.

It's deeply weird from an outside perspective. If counts are taking too long, if people are having trouble voting, provision more... but of course it seems clear that there are motives for underprovisioning, because one or other group thinks it will benefit them.


> Want counting in a day? That's xenophobia. Want to limit certain time window for counting?

Why do either of these matter? If you assume paper voting in-person is secure, then there is zero reason to also limit the time spent counting or the time window for counting. Anything past that point is clearly trying to fill some sort of agenda for the sake of disenfranchising people who cannot adhere to the times you're trying to set.


These objections to secure voting always smell the same as “privacy and encryption bad, must protect children!”

How we do it in Idaho, which I think is pretty much the ideal level.

1. Everyone votes on paper.

2. An electronic tallying machine tallies the vote.

3. Vote counts are sent to a central system, IDK if it's electronic or not.

4. Candidates can challenge and start a hand recount at anytime.

I think this combo is pretty close to the ideal. The actual ballots are easy to audit. Discrepancies can be challenged. And the machine doing the tallying isn't connected to the internet, it's just a counting tool that gets the job done fast.

For people with disabilities, poll workers can come in and help with the vote.


If you’re willing to do away with the secret ballot, you can eliminate a lot of the need for transparency in the mechanics. If people are able to check their own vote for discrepancies and speak to others to confirm their validity, you only really need to confirm that the final vote count is tabulated correctly (which again, is relatively easy to independently verify).

> If you’re willing to do away with the secret ballot

We're not willing to do that. No modern democracy has public ballots. The reason is simple: secret ballots make it effectively impossible to buy votes, as there's no way to prove how any person actually voted.


I would simply say speak for yourself.

You’re making a choice between making it impossible to buy votes and impossible to verify votes. Both come with tradeoffs that can be mitigated, whether that be investigating and prosecuting attempts at bribery in one case or maintaining a strict chain of custody in the other. The decision ultimately comes down to a judgement call on regarding your priorities. I don’t think eliminating the secret ballot should be dismissed out of hand, given most voting was conducted without it prior to the late 19th century.


Not just buy vote, coerce votes

You can achieve the same thing with electronic voting. Just because its electronic does not mean you do away with the “layers”

That's pretty much the same in France

>Elections like this can be gamed, but the gaming becomes an exercise in coercing people to vote counter to their preference, not "hacking" the system.

If that's gaming the system, what even is the point of voting?


The key word is coereced (as in, forced, not convinced).

OK, I accept that distinction. I interpreted it more as "they were shown what I consider to be disinformation and found it convincing."

Are you suggesting that voting is pointless because some people can be convinced to vote for stupid things?

I think the point is that’s not “gaming” that’s just how voting works. Gaming would be getting your preference by voting against it.

Yeah. The weakness in any democracy are “populist” Robin Hood politicians.

> If that's gaming the system, what even is the point of voting?

Good point. Let's just get rid of voting and go back to "divine right of kings", at least until they develop a cure for human gullibility.


People can be taught to recognize when they're being duped.

This may be a bit tinfoil hatty of me, but I think the whole anti-woke thing is a ploy to interfere with that kind of education.


Composition, not inheritance.


With all due respect, I don't think you understand what the "worst case" scenario looks like for global warming, and how close we are to that scenario. For reference, check out figure 1 in this nature article [1].

That has warming by 2300 as 8C in an "emissions continue current trends" path.

Here's chatgpt giving a picture of what 8C warming looks like. Speculative, hallucinations, caveat emptor, etc...but to give a sense of proportion this, last time the earth was 8C *cooler* than now, ice covered 25% of the planet:

> At +8°C, Earth is fundamentally transformed. Large parts of today’s populated zones—South Asia, the Middle East, Africa, southern Europe, the southern U.S.—are functionally uninhabitable for humans outdoors. Wet-bulb temperatures regularly exceed survivable limits. Agriculture collapses across the subtropics; even mechanized, climate-controlled farming is marginal. Most of the world’s food comes from high-latitude regions: a narrow band across northern Canada, Scandinavia, and Siberia. Sea levels are dozens of meters higher, drowning coastal megacities; Miami, New York, Shanghai, and London are gone. Phoenix is lifeless desert. Seattle is coastal tundra, wetter but still survivable.

> Civilization persists only in fragments. Mass migration and resource wars have rewritten borders. Population is a fraction of 21st-century levels. Global trade, universities, and modern governance are mostly memories. Local, self-sufficient polities dominate. The United States as an institution likely dissolves or transforms beyond recognition—2 out of 10 chance of recognizable survival. Harvard or MIT survive, if at all, as digital archives or autonomous AI-driven knowledge systems—3 out of 10. The world would still have people and culture, but not civilization as we know it.

Edit: I would appreciate knowing why I'm getting downvoted when I added citations for *possible* warming paths (from nature!). Yes, the chatgpt explanation is speculative but I mean, look at the thread we're discussing.

[1]: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41612-020-0121-5


Part of the problem of getting +/- 8C of different global temperature is the speed of it. https://xkcd.com/1732/ shows a timeline that goes back to 20000 AC, where global average temperature was like 5ºC less. There has been changes, but also adaptation. Now in less than 200 years we increased 2ºC, and the speed of change has increased, it was around 10 years ago when we reached 1ºC over preindustrial times, and now we are at 1.5ºC.

And without adaptation you get mass extinction. And the human system may be pretty fragile against the disappearance or deep change of key components of the global system.


I appreciated your comment. I’ll also note that the path to that future will not be fun - you/chatgpt describe a kind of end state 275 years away, but things will evolve to that state over time. I suspect the downvotes may reflect people’s desire not to face the likely reality.


About 40% of AI infrastructure spending is the physical datacenter itself and the associated energy production. 60% is the chips.

That 40% has a very long shelf life.

Unfortunately, the energy component is almost entirely fossil fuels, so the global warming impact is pretty significant.

At this point, geoengineering is the only thing that can earn us a bit of time to figure...idk, something out, and we can only hope the oceans don't acidify too much in the meantime.


Interesting. Do you have any sources for this 60/40 split? And while I agree that the infrastructure has a long shelf life, it seems to me like an AI bubble burst would greatly depreciate the value of this infrastructure as the demand for it plummets, no?


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-

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Three pilot customers/design partners to start working with, on both sides of the border.

The company is not VC backed and probably won’t be for a long time. Good wages, lots of work. Good people. Not a lot of bullshit.

Us: Highly technical founding team with track record of success. Tiny tech team, large manufacturing team.

You: True full-stack. You enjoy shipping features, not code. You keep things simple. The role is “founding engineer”: you must be ok with a tiny team and working mostly by yourself.

Stack: Elixir.

Email me. sebastianv@gmail.com


I work in the datacenter space. The power consumption of a data center is the "canonical" way to describe their size.

Almost every component in a datacenter is upgradeable—in fact, the compute itself only has a lifespan of ~5 years—but the power requirements are basically locked-in. A 200MW data center will always be a 200MW data center, even though the flops it computes will increase.

The fact that we use this unit really nails the fact that AI is basically refining energy.


  A 200MW data center will always be a 200MW data center, even though the flops it computes will increase.
This here underscores how important TSMC's upcoming N2 node is. It only increases chip density by ~1.15x (very small relative to previous nodes advancements) but it uses 36% less energy at the same speed as N3 or 18% faster than N3 at the same energy. It's coming at the right time for AI chips used by consumers and energy starved data centers.

N2 is shaping up to be TSMC's most important node since N7.


> N2 is shaping up to be TSMC's most important node since N7

Is it?

N2, from an energy & perf improvement seems on par with any generation node update.

          N2:N3   N3:N5  N5:N7
  Power   ~30%    ~30%    ~30%
  Perf    ~15%    ~15%    ~15%
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/tsmc-reveals-2nm-fabricati...


Yes. It has more tape outs at this stage of development than both N5 or N3. It’s wildly popular for chip designers it seems.


I thought Apple gets exclusive access to the latest node for the first 1-2 years. Is that not the case?


No. That's not the case. Maybe for a few months only.


Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't TSMC launch N3 in 2022, and still only Apple uses this latest/smallest node.

Both AMD and NVIDIA are using N4.


Apple, Mediatek, Qualcomm, Intel


I love that term "refining energy". We need to plan for massive growth in electricity production to have the supply to refine.


Sounds smart but it’s abusing the semantics of “refine” and is therefore ultimately vacuous.


I think it is really just the difference between chemically refining something and electrically refining something.

Raw AC comes in, then gets stepped down, filtered, converted into DC rails, gated, timed, and pulsed. That’s already an industrial refinement process. The "crude" incoming power is shaped into the precise, stable forms that CPUs, GPUs, RAM, storage, and networking can actually use.

Then those stable voltages get flipped billions of times per second into ordered states, which become instructions, models, inferences, and other high-value "product."

It sure seems like series of processes for refining something.


It is the opposite of refining energy. Electrical energy is steak, what leaves the datacenter is heat, the lowest form of energy that we might still have a use for in that concentration (but most likely we are just dumping it in the atmosphere).

Refining is taking a lower quality energy source and turning it into a higher quality one.

What you could argue is that it adds value to bits. But the bits themselves, their state is what matters, not the energy that transports them.


I think you're pushing the metaphor a bit far, but the parallel was to something like ore.

A power plant "mines" electron, which the data center then refines into words. or whatever. The point is that energy is the raw material that flows into data centers.


Maybe more like converting energy to data, as a more specific type of refinement.


Using energy to decrease the entropy of data. Or to organize and structure data.


I like that. Take random wild electrons and put them neatly into rows & columns where they can sit a spell.


This is OpenAI, they are not decreasing the entropy. This is refining coal into waste heat and CO2.


All life is basically refining energy - standing up to entropy and temporarily winning the fight.


It's all about putting the entropy somewhere else and keeping your own little area organised.


People of the earth, remember: unnecessary arm and leg movements increase the entropy! Fear of the heat death of the universe! Lie down when possible!


Yes, in a very local context it appears so, but net entropy across the system from life's activities is increased


"the purpose of life is to hydrogenate carbon dioxide"

-- Michael Russel


Where do the cards go after 5 years? I don't see a large surplus of mid sized cloud providers coming to buy them (cause AI isn't profitable), Maybe other countries (possibly illegally)? Flood the consumer market with cards they can't use? TSMCs' more than doubled packaging and they are planning on doubling again


This.

A local to me ~40W datacenter used to be in really high demand, and despite having excess rack space, had no excess power. It was crazy.


40W - is that ant datacenter? :)


Yeah, it was the companies pilot site, and everything about it is tiny.

But it very quickly became the best place in town for carrier interconnection. So every carrier wanted in.

Even when bigger local DC's went in, a lot of what they were doing was just landing virtual cross connects to the tiny one, because thats where everyone was.


You lost a M or K next to your W.

I still have an Edison bulb that consumes more power.


Yep I see that haha.


> the power requirements are basically locked-in

Why is that? To do with the incoming power feed or something else?


Basically, yes. When you stand up something that big, you need to work with the local utilities to ensure they have the capacity for what you're doing. While you can ask for more power later on, if the utilities can't supply it or the grid can't transport it, you're SOL.


You could in theory supplement it with rooftop solar and batteries, especially if you can get customers who can curtail their energy use easily. Datacentres have a lot of roof space, they could at least reduce their daytime energy costs a bit. I wonder why you don't see many doing solar, do the economics not work out yet?


I'd have to do the math, but I doubt that makes sense given the amount of power these things are drawing. I've heard of DCs having on-site power generation, but it's usually in the form of diesel generators used for supplemental or emergency power. In one weird case, I heard about a DC that used on-site diesel as primary power and used the grid as backup.


Compared to their volume they absolutely do not: you get about ~1kW / m^2 of solar. Some quick googling suggests a typical DC workload would be about 50 kW / m^2, rising too 100 for AI workloads.


Cooling too. A datacenter that takes 200MW in has to dissipate 200MW of heat to somewhere.


guessing massive capital outlays and maybe irreversible site selection/preparation concerns.


That's pretty interesting. Is it just because the power channels are the most fundamental aspect of the building? I'm sorta surprised you can't rip out old cables and drop in new ones, or something to that effect, but I also know NOTHING about electricity.


Not an expert, but it’s probably related to cooling. Every joule of that electricity that goes in must also leave the datacenter as heat. And the whole design of a datacenter is centered around cooling requirements.


Exactly. To add to that, I'd like to point out that when this person says every joule, he is not exaggerating (only a teeny tiny bit). The actual computation itself barely uses any energy at all.


Refining it into what? Stock prices?


It's not some "magical way"--the ways in which a human thinks that an LLM doesn't are pretty obvious, and I dare say self-evidently part of what we think constitutes human intelligence:

- We have a sense of time (ie, ask an LLM to follow up in 2 minutes)

- We can follow negative instructions ("don't hallucinate, if you don't know the answer, say so")


We only have a sense of time in the presence of inputs. Stick a human into a sensory deprivation tank for a few hours and then ask them how much time has passed afterwards. They wouldn't know unless they managed to maintain a running count throughout, but that's a trick an LLM can also do (so long as it knows generation speed).

The general notion of passage of time (i.e. time arrow) is the only thing that appears to be intrinsic, but it is also intrinsic for LLMs in a sense that there are "earlier" and "later" tokens in its input.


I think plenty of people have problems with the second one but you wouldn't say that means they can't think.


We don't need to prove all humans are capable of this. We can demonstrate that some humans are, therefore humans must be capable, broadly speaking

Until we see an LLM that is capable of this, then they aren't capable of it, period


Sometimes LLMs hallucinate or bullshit, sometimes they don't, sometimes humans hallucinate or bullshit, sometimes they don't. It's not like you can tell a human to stop being delusional on command either. I'm not really seeing the argument.


If a human hallucinates or bullshits in a way that harms you or your company you can take action against them

That's the difference. AI cannot be held responsible for hallucinations that cause harm, therefore it cannot be incentivized to avoid that behavior, therefore it cannot be trusted

Simple as that


The question wasn't can it be trusted, it was does it think.


The steel/al content is taxed only for some products. Veterinary vaccines have tariff code `3002.42.00` which is not subject to these Section 232 tariffs :)


I manufacture steel/aluminum goods for the US and I have direct experience with these tariffs. Let me explain why it must be this way and how it's actually supposed to work. This is not a defense of the tariffs, just an explanation.

First of all, if you want to use tariffs to boost domestic manufacturing, you must also tax the steel/al content of finished (or intermediate) goods. Otherwise, you put your local producers at a disadvantage, making the tariffs worse.

If you only tariff raw materials, then an american manufacturer has to pay either US steel prices or imported steel + tariff to manufacture, but a company overseas can use the cheaper foreign steel.

So if you want to tax raw materials, then you also want to tax those goods where raw materials are an important part of the cost.

The US has a catalog called the "Harmonized Tariff Schedule" (HTS) which is a catalog of basically everything under the sun [0]. When the steel & AL tariffs were announced, they also published a list of all the HTS codes where the steel/al content would also be taxed.

Last week the US published a revised list of HTS codes to which these tariffs apply, and they added about 400 items to them. For example, the aluminum content of cans is now taxed when it wasn't before.

Flexport has a very cool (and useful!) tariff simulator where you can look up any item and it will tell you if the steel/al content will be subject to these tariffs: https://tariffs.flexport.com

[0]: https://hts.usitc.gov/


> Otherwise, you put your local producers at a disadvantage, making the tariffs worse.

Disadvantaging local producers is how tariffs work! Local producers would then turn to local suppliers who don't have any additional taxes applied. Tariffs are a very blunt instrument, and clumsily attempting to assuage 2nd order pain points will only give rise to 3rd (and higher) order effects.

The lesson here is: don't fuck around with multivariate dynamic systems that have achieved stability: there won't be any one knob you can twist to get a result you want on a single parameter. It'll be worse if you pick one knob and turn it all the way to 11.


Yes, but it's not how the US government wants them to work. So they legislate more to close the bugs and make it work the way they want.

It's a known flawless way to evolve code... Never revise, never delete, add enough so the tests pass.

But I don't think your lesson is reasonable. Fucking with multivariate dynamic systems is what governments do. And it's well settled that in the absence of the government doing that, everything goes to hell quite quickly.


Great point - I've edited my initial comment to convey the meaning I intended, "don't fuck around with ...", and this administration is fucking around with tariffs.

I'm with you in expecting government to tweak, adjust and modify policy, but it's usually the experts advising and implementing, but we're in the "My ignorance is as valid as your experience era", and we will witness where that will take us.


Tangential, but it seems this will also accelerate the move to even more flimsy plastics in everything from appliances to construction materials to cars.


Yes, it's a very logical part of a tariff regime, and tariffs penalize domestic manufacturers without it.

But wow, are tariffs (and other micro taxes) disruptive on getting things done efficiently.


I have the problem since weeks. An electric device made for me with billing isnt in the catallog of regular stuff or whatever and now they need to figure out what it could be because my description is not enough -.-


You mean this fixes the first order effect that penalizes domestic manufacturers, assuming correct information. It does not solve it, there's second, third, fourth, ... order effects. And there's no rule those are smaller than first order, in fact, they're almost universally more.

Domestic manufacturers are still disadvantaged by having to pay tariffs for materials used for the product, but not present in the final product. And foreign manufacturers still don't. If used in machines (and used up), used in mining (and used up), used in transport, used in energy production, ...

These costs are very large, especially because specific materials are often not available worldwide, or have large differences in quality due to availability of tiny amounts of additives for alloys or compounds. These things do lead to very large differences in quality, and thus in value. You can't model that as a government, it's just not going to happen.

There's no way to fully analyze an entire economic chain (especially when almost everyone involved has a financial incentive to sabotage you doing that correctly, and that includes foreign governments). You'd think this wouldn't have to be explained to either Americans or especially a supposed "defender of capitalism", but here we are.


>But wow, are tariffs (and other micro taxes) disruptive on getting things done efficiently.

Well, that depends on what you are getting done.

If your objective is solely to get a product done, the most efficient way is probably going to involve terrible salaries plus ample disregard for the environment and human life. Anything else is going to be disruptive to that end.


I mean...they're still punished by tariffs with these changes, but they're also punished without them.


Aluminum in beer cans has been subject to aluminum tariffs since April (was 25% initially and was upped to 50%).[^1]

Because they didn't use the right specificity in the announcement (used an 8 digit HTS vs 10 digit), there was some confusion for a few weeks if Beer in glass bottles was subject to it as well.

There is now an FAQ on CBP's website clarifying it is not [^2]. And they've updated to the right specificity in the new lists.

> Is HTS 2203.00.0030, Beer made from malt, In containers each holding not over 4 liters, In glass containers; subject to Section 232 duties? > No.

But yes, effective 18 August, they broadened the list a whole lot more and added things from condensed milk to deodorant to both steel and aluminum lists. An absolute nightmare for FMCG supply chain to have to figure this out.

You can agree or disagree with the current administration's trade policy but hopefully, even the staunchest proponents will admit that the execution has been sub-par. With u-turns (sometimes leaving partner countries fuming because the final published tariffs were not what were negotiated[^3]), lack of clarity and changes that land on Friday night after work hours and go into effect on Monday midnight.

[^1]: https://public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2025-05884.pdf

[^2]: https://www.cbp.gov/trade/programs-administration/entry-summ...

[^3]: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/08/08/business/japan-tariffs-us...


I have to say it’s quite entertaining watching this from not the US.


It really isn't. It's destructive and short sighted behavior based on incoherent dogmatism over any motivations for thoughtful and more restrained policy decision making. His motivations for any action is based on flattery and ego that stretch the boundaries of multiple universes. It's so crazy how much blatantly unconstitutional stuff he's gotten away with.


Is there a reason they can’t offer a flat fee? So, customs could say that since CPUs typically contain X% steel, they’ll charge that much plus Y extra; if you don’t want to pay Y you can still give the exact amount instead.


I don't think Olimex understands tariffs. Maybe they shouldn't have to. But you don't have to specify the breakdown of your PCB by mineral content. That's what the harmonized tariffs schedules are all about, to account for this very issue.


But then why are CBP (via the shippers) demanding a certificate of analysis rather than just referring people to the HTS? I know a lot of people in the synthesizer industry, and where previously they would just refer to the HTS classification for musical instruments there's a lot confusion about the recently announced 100% tariff on foreign made semiconductors. Since virtually every synth uses semiconductors and a great deal of the trade is in boutique products with relatively low manufacturing volumes, the uncertainty is creating major headaches on top of the headaches caused by the shipping puases.


Sorry bud, but I don’t think you’re aware of section 232. It became effective on August 1.

https://www.cbp.gov/trade/programs-administration/entry-summ...


Thanks for the correction. I was mistakenly thinking that Section 232 only applied to steel and aluminum. But copper is also affected as well:

https://www.dominioncustomsconsultants.com/cbp-updated-guida...


> Otherwise, you put your local producers at a disadvantage, making the tariffs worse.

Don't some tariffs motivate people to do processing offshore?

If I import 1kg of copper and machine/etch/whatever it down into products, with some wastage, maybe I should just do everything offshore and only import the final articles with 500g of copper in it.

At some point, higher tariffs on input materials will overtake the higher value of finished goods and you might as well just manufacture the whole thing offshore anyway.


That's one of the primary problems with tarrifs especially broad untargeted ones: the first thing they encourage is offshoring everything because it becomes cheaper to only be hit once on import, rather then multiple times by your suppliers and compliance costs, who in turn are also getting tarrifed on their supplies and tools.


Short term yes. But (this isn’t a defense of tariffs), the concept is that this will spur on domestic production in raw materials. So with this example, if there is a domestic source of copper it wouldn’t be subject to tariffs at all. In theory only, well balanced tariffs would make it cheaper to import US sourced raw materials for use in US bound products. In practice, I don’t think anyone knows what’s involved in doing that.


Yes, I am seriously looking at either splitting my production between internal and external uses to avoid passing tariff costs on to the majority of my customers who are foreign. I've worked at using US companies for many components but that is becoming less attractive. I wish it weren't this way but that is how it goes.

The capricious implementation of the tariffs is another issue. Biden raised tariffs but the implementation involved a months long comment period, then a notice months in advance, and finally implementation. It wasn't ideal in my mind (the specific tariffs) but there was a way to work through the consequences and plan accordingly. This administration does not believe in that. Maybe congress would if they took back responsibility for tariff policy but I don't see that happening right now.


This all makes a lot of sense and is also a great reason why sudden tariffs like these are absolutely bat shit insane. It's exactly what an incompetent PHB would do.


Create a bullshit system, deserve bullshit results. Everyone should be making random guesses at the content percentages and wait and see if they even spend time opening a single package let alone melting it down into constituent parts or doing spectral analysis vs a $100 item

In fact this should be a sales tactic for fedex or whomever "we bullshit the numbers for ya!"


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