A couple of days after the UK Fuel Finder service launch last month, I wrote a hobby site using its API to get the cheapest local fuel prices: https://fuelseeker.net. I too discovered prices which had obviously been entered in pounds rather than pennies, or even missing altogether some cases. You would think that they could have done a bit more basic data cleansing on the server to catch that type of thing.
But, hey, we’re all wise after the event. To their credit though, they do seem to be actively reacting to feedback. I also contacted them about the bad data issue, and they are now adding user warnings about bad price values at the point of data entry (according to https://www.developer.fuel-finder.service.gov.uk/release-not...).
There an obvious incentive for petrol stations to 'accidentally' put too low price, so they can get top of the table on services like yours. So they probably need to do more than add warnings.
I dunno... it feels like the same approach as those people who tell you gleeful stories of how they kept a phone spammer on a call for 45 minutes: "That'll teach 'em, ha ha!" Do these types of techniques really work? I’m not convinced.
Also, inserting hidden or misleading links is specifically a no-no for Google Search [0], who have this to say: We detect policy-violating practices both through automated systems and, as needed, human review that can result in a manual action. Sites that violate our policies may rank lower in results or not appear in results at all.
So you may well end up doing more damage to your own site than to the bots by using dodgy links in this manner.
>I dunno... it feels like the same approach as those people who tell you gleeful stories of how they kept a phone spammer on a call for 45 minutes: "That'll teach 'em, ha ha!" Do these types of techniques really work? I’m not convinced
If you are automating it, I don't see why not.
Kitboga, a you-tuber kept scam callers in AI call-center loops tying up there resources so they cant use them on unsuspecting victims.[0]
That's a guerilla tactic, similar in warfare, when you steal resources from an enemy, you get stronger and they get weaker, its pretty effective.
Pretty easy. Get a paid number and have the phone scammers / marketers call that. I know a guy who made a decent side huzzle from this. They marketers slowly blocked his number tho, not sure if he still has this thing going on, as it was more a experiment.
IIRC he did something like that, ask them to call back in "10 minutes after my meeting, and call my personal number, not my corporate phone, as it is tracked". On other occasions he filled in this number to some online forms that he "was asked to fill before continuing".
Its pretty easy. You can register a number with a phone company. Then you decide on the cost (eg. 5 bucks / minute). I recall he told me got like 100-150 usd/month from this. The longer he talked, the more they paid. He used to hang up after 10 or 15 minutes, but his "record" was close to one hour.
It would make a great pitch for a postmodern novel. In a post-ai world where everything is a remixed replica of the former world, humans don't communicate anymore as they were overloaded by noise and spam and can't distinguish between real humans and AIs.
> gleeful stories of how they kept a phone spammer on a call for 45 minutes: "That'll teach 'em, ha ha!" Do these types of techniques really work? I’m not convinced.
It’s one of the best time investments I’ve ever made. They just don’t call me anymore.
I think they have two lists: the “do not call” list, and the “unprofitable to call” list. You want to be on the latter list.
I'm guessing they might only know how long they had you on the phone per call and be oblivious to the fact you're intentionally wasting their time. I suppose you're still tying down a person who could be otherwise be genuinely scamming someone.
Also, inserting hidden or misleading links is specifically a no-no for Google Search [0]
Depending on your goals, this may be a pro or a con. I, personally, would like to see a return of "small web" human-centric communities. If there were tools that include anti-scraping, anti-Google (and other large search crawlers) as well as a small web search index for humans to find these sites, this idea becomes a real possibility.
Exactly. Identifying crawlers like Google, bing aren't the issue. They obey robots.txt, and can easily be blocked by user agent checks. Non-identifying crawlers, which provide humanlike user agents, and which are usually distributed so get around ip-based rate limits, are the main ones that are challenging to deal with.
> it feels like the same approach as those people who tell you gleeful stories of how they kept a phone spammer on a call for 45 minutes: "That'll teach 'em, ha ha!" Do these types of techniques really work? I’m not convinced.
In 2000s there was some company in Russia selling English courses. It spammed so much, that people were really pissed off. To make long story short, the company disappeared from a public space when Golden Telecom joined the party of retaliatory "spam" calls and make computer to call the company using Golden Telecom modem pool.
So, yeah, you kinda can achieve something in this way, but to make sure you should lease a modem pool for that.
It might work for a very basic bot that doesn't understand how scraping to infinite depth is not very good idea. It won't be effective against anything minimally sophisticated.
phone scammers have a very high personel cost, hence why some resort for human traffic.
if everyone picked up the phone and wasted a few seconds, it would be enough to make their whole enterprise worthless. but since most people who would not fail shutdown right away, they have the best ROI of any industry. they don't even pay the call for first seconds.
Is this how low we've sunk - that even below taking a single personal anecdote and generalizing it to everything - now we're taking zero experience and dismissing things based on vibes?
I've seen lots of LLM-slop-lovers doing the same thing. Maybe it's a pattern.
We are way lower. At least this comment allows uncertainty.
The AI doomer literature is entirely from an armchair, with 100% certainty about the outcome, high confidence predictions about its timing. It’s literally fiction.
Who TF cares about google? This is mostly for personal tech stuff (just the stuff AI steals for training). Id say its pretty welcome that it is not shown in google results.
Honestly, I’m starting to not give a fuck about ranking on Google.
Google searches have become incredibly devalued for me in the age of LLMs. ChatGPT is pretty much my first and often only stop on a quest for some answers.
If you have a website, you must promote it via other ways that don’t involve Google.
Great detective work re the azimuth finding for the glyph, but I believe the link to a sextant is tenuous at best. The author says it can, of course, be turned sideways to measure an azimuth with respect to an arbitrary meridian. That’s not correct. The tool for doing that is an azimuth ring sitting on a compass which allows the user to obtain the angle relative to north (the azimuth) between the user’s local meridian and a landmark.
A sextant can be used to obtain the relative horizontal angle between two landmarks, but it is much easier to use an azimuth ring. A sextant is designed to be used vertically. Holding and using one horizontally is difficult and time-consuming in comparison and is probably a less than a 1% use case, used only during the training of apprentices as a theoretical exercise (source: professional mariner for many years and daily user of a sextant back in the day). A comparison would be using a screwdriver to drive in a nail; you could do it given enough time, but a hammer is much easier.
I believe the explanation is much simpler: the glyph simply represents a variety of angles measured from north (the common meaning of azimuth) avoiding the use of any lettering (like “N”) or the use of a compass-like symbol which would be difficult to represent at such small scale.
Also (pedant warning for another poster) Polaris is not the brightest star, it’s around the 40th and has no practical use for navigation other than “north is roughly that way”.
Note that the description says "Azimut, Richtungswinkel". Those seem to be somewhat different concepts today. The respective Wikipedia articles don't even mention each other:
> I believe the explanation is much simpler: the glyph simply represents a variety of angles measured from north (the common meaning of azimuth)
The way I see it, it appears to be an arrow curling around the vertical axis, representing the turn from the angle's start to the angle's end. In that sense, the modern curvy arrow actually makes more sense than the original jagged one (which maybe was easier to typeset - or maybe just disproves my theory).
"Haussystem Didot" in the article's referenced typesetting catalog refers to the typesetting of the Didot family's printing agency. And they used that symbol 1700 and onwards in their map navigation descriptions in these books:
I am gonna repeat myself, but search for the Gallica links in each of those books to find the scans. There you can see earlier usage and evidence that as I pointed out in other - downvoted comments - that this was commonly used for sextant navigation instructions.
The image referencing "Haussystem Didot" is an example of a catalog not containing the Angzarr symbol in question.
I did not find any evidence for earlier examples in any of the very few scans I looked at, nor does a search through the Google Books scans give any indication for words that seem related to the concept.
This would be such a fantastic find! Could you point out a specific example?
Fascinating links, but I could not find an example of the glyph in question? My point was that a sextant is not (and cannot be) used to measure azimuth. It primarily measures the angle between a celestial body and the horizon (i.e. altitude). It can also (theoretically, very rarely) be used to measure the horizontal angle between two or more landmarks, but that is not azimuth in the accepted sense of the word. I am happy to be corrected though; my experience of sextants may be too narrow or modern for this context.
My wife and I plus our (then) two small children were driving though France from the UK. I was towing a caravan and suddenly realised that the van had got a flat tyre. No worries, I thought, I have a spare, a jack and a wheel wrench. So, I pulled over and got to work changing the tyre. To my horror, I immediately discovered that my car’s wheel nuts were bigger than the van’s, so my car wheel wrench was useless for the flat van tyre! And all I had otherwise were small hand tools.
I should add that this was back in the days of dumb phones, long before GPS devices were common in cars, so all I had was a small-scale paper route map of France. I had no clue which way to go to find help, and no way to find a phone number. It was late afternoon, and we were still a long way from the campsite. I was starting to sweat.
But then a French woman with her daughter pulled over in a small car and asked if we needed any help. Using a mixture of my poor French and sign language, I indicated I needed a wheel wrench, which she pulled out of her boot. My joy and relief were obvious. I change the van wheel in no time, thanked her profusely, and off she went.
But there was twist in the tale: my hazard lights had been flashing so long that when I tried to start up the car, all I got was that sickening tick-tick-tick sound of a dead battery. Could my day get any worse? But then I remembered that my van had its own battery! A quick battery swap-over later, and we were back on the road, and had a great holiday, all thanks to the kindness of a big-hearted French woman who was kind enough to stop and offer help to foreign strangers stuck in the middle of nowhere.
Fabulous software. I used it to create LIDAR map tiles from free UK government LIDAR data of my local area (Hampshire, UK) at https://solentmaps.uk. When used as a layer placed under standard map tiles, you can see all sorts of long-hidden historical artefacts under modern deep foliage. The ruins of a long-forgotten WW1 hospital near me can be clearly seen under the modern day trees. Fun stuff to play with.
I jumped the other way round aged 40 from non-tech into tech. I went from being a UK merchant ship captain to working as a software developer. I did it over a couple of years by increasing my knowledge in my spare time as a hobbyist until I felt I was at least good enough to be employed in a dev role. I should mention that this was back around the millennium, when web dev was still a wide-open and rapidly changing field.
The obvious big issue is maintaining roughly the same salary level, but you’d be surprised how much you can tighten your belt if a making a big jump down. A non-obvious negative is getting used to loss of status. That hurt a bit initially, but I soon found that the novelty of re-inventing myself in a new domain was massively invigorating, plus I was suddenly working with very different (and much younger) colleagues. So I decided to shut up about the old job from day one and never mentioned it unless asked (no-one cared anyway).
But be aware of turning a hobby into a job though. I got into dev as just a hobby initially. Then it became a paying part-time gig when on leave, which eventually lead to a job offer via someone I knew in the business. You’ll soon find that doing your hobby for a living cools your enthusiasm for your hobby, especially when dealing with difficult customers, bosses, or ridiculous deadlines. That said, I’m really pleased I made the jump and don’t ever have to wonder “what if?”.
> You’ll soon find that doing your hobby for a living cools your enthusiasm for your hobby
I think a lot of software developers are in that situations. I suspect for a lot of us, programming started as a hobby.
> A non-obvious negative is getting used to loss of status
I can imagine. I never had a great status, it can sound very vain but I sometimes I wish I had one :) Ironically, working in a big tech company can send you to the very top of the salary range but nobody knows, you're just a "programmer" which isn't super prestigious.
> I went from being a UK merchant ship captain to working as a software developer.
That's one hell of a story. How did you end up in the trade to begin with? How long it take for you get promoted to captain? What kind of cargo did you typically carry? How big was your crew? What was the largest ship you captained? What are farthest points you've sailed to in all cardinal directions? Were you still you still operating with paper maps and sextants by the time of your captaincy or was GPS common on ships by that point?
I went to sea with BP Tankers as a deck cadet in 1976 trading worldwide, largely to escape my small village life. When I qualified as 2nd mate, I moved to mediterranean trade small bulk carriers, then oil rig supply ships on the North Sea. Got my first command at 32 on the rig boats, so around 14 years at sea by then. Ended up on local ferries when I became a father in order to do shorter trips away from home (I had to drop two ranks, but it was worth it). The biggest crew I captained was around 40 when working on a short-lived cross channel ferry service from Weymouth to Cherbourg. Rig boats typically only had about 12 crew though. My last seagoing job was a harbour pilot for a couple of years which gave me the spare time to learn software dev.
And yes, I was probably one of the last generations of seafarers who used celestial nav and paper charts on deep sea trips before GPS became universal. We used Decca Navigator for coastal nav, now also long gone and forgotten. So electronic charts were way after my time! I lost count after 40+ countries visited, but it's really not the flex you might think because there was very rarely time to go ashore.
However the experience and confidence gained at sea helped enormously when (say) presenting a software proposal to CEOs and the like, most of whom were the same age as me. They tended to assume I was much more senior than I really was! I never regretted the jump though. If you can make the money work, then I’d recommend career changing to anyone for the new lease of life it gives you. Especially if feel you have gone as far as you can in the old career.
You, Sir, have an amazing way with words. Thank you for sharing your experiences. If it ever comes to a 3rd act for you, do consider a career in writing / blogging especially to share those stories you had the luxury to live through.
But, hey, we’re all wise after the event. To their credit though, they do seem to be actively reacting to feedback. I also contacted them about the bad data issue, and they are now adding user warnings about bad price values at the point of data entry (according to https://www.developer.fuel-finder.service.gov.uk/release-not...).
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